A gentle reminder....

Last that I'll say on this topic, which is now four days older with no progress (and I'm personally awaiting a response to an older inquiry on this very same topic, but then this thread erupted, so who knows if I'll get a response.)

All I want to know is what the per person limit is on other fleet resources besides ships.

I'm cool with well-defined limits. I don't want to make new rules or form a quorum or wait on a poll or hash it all out forever and ever ad nauseum. Open the store, don't open the store; makes me no difference - I can only buy so much anyway.

We already had a fleet meeting and a large enough group of us agreed to limits, specifically 1 ship per member; I didn't make it to the meeting, but I'm totally cool with what was decided and trust my fleet in this regard. Yes, asking for permission to go shop is a little inconvenient, but I'll live.

HOWEVER, all I want to know is what the per person limit is on other fleet resources besides ships. I don't want to infringe on anyone else's access to these items, but I do want them for myself.

Until we have a number limit, or a suggestion, or even a statement on how much each purchase drains from the Fleet Provisions, I'm in limbo with a dwindling Dilithium market and no clue on how I should proceed. It's frustrating, and since it's zen/dilithium conversion that I have to use with my fleet credits (casual gamer here,) it's a matter of real money.

Just getting some numbers (i.e. 1 fleet weapon drains "X" provisions; we generate approx "Y" provisions per week, and spend approx "Z" a week) would be a huge help to me, and to this larger discussion about opening the store or not.

Hell, low-ball the figures and create a small surplus by erring on the side of caution, but sitting here spinning our wheels with no facts on our provision budget is maddening, and only leads to improved Canada-Italy relations.

I apologize for being selfish in this regard, but I don't want to change any rules or eliminate them or anything; I just want clarification of the current rule (and to a lesser extent, its effects on our budget thus far) while everyone hashes out whether they want the store open or not...

------------------------------------------

P.S. - I'm also cool with if our fleet hasn't been tracking numbers and purchases. It's a game after all, and people have lives. But until we discuss actual metrics in real numeric budgetary terms with some kind of factual records to back it up, then there's no point in limits in the first place; it's just an arbitrary preference up to that point.

I too would like that information.

Quote by mrgig00

Last that I'll say on this topic, which is now four days older with no progress

I hope that I can answer some of your questions. Firstly, as has been mentioned, there is an ongoing discussion amongst the fleet leadership as to whether changes to the fleet store process will be implemented, and if so, what form those changes will take.

I expect that an announcement will be made in the near future, so don't construe the lack of a formal position by the leadership in this particular thread, as being a lack of progress :)

Quote by mrgig00

All I want to know is what the per person limit is on other fleet resources besides ships.

Fleet ship: 1
Fleet space weapons: 8
Fleet space gear: 1x shield, 1x engine, 1x deflector
Fleet ground gear: 1x armor, 1x shield, 1x weapon

Basically, the idea was that you'd be able to use fleet gear to outfit your Captain, and not your entire bridge crew. These limits are a 'per character' limit, which means that if you have a toon in Deep Space Stonewall or House of Nagh Red, that you could outfit them as well.

I'm using the following threads as reference, in answering this question:

The July fleet meeting minutes:
http://fleet.stonewallgaming.net/forums/briefing-room/46036-fleet-wide-meeting-minutes-july-21st

And here... in which provisioning is further discussed:
http://fleet.stonewallgaming.net/forums/ten-forward/49810-promotion-to-requisitioning-request

Quote by mrgig00

Just getting some numbers (i.e. 1 fleet weapon drains "X" provisions; we generate approx "Y" provisions per week, and spend approx "Z" a week) would be a huge help to me, and to this larger discussion about opening the store or not.

To answer your question, I currently track the provision totals across all three fleets, once or twice weekly. Let's use yesterday's provision totals for Deep Space Stonewall as an example.

Deep Space Stonewall
Starbase Provision totals

Military:
95 Buffs
81 Fleet Ships
59 Operational Assets

Engineering:
25 Buffs
45 Operational Assets
53 Personal Requisition

Science:
50 Buffs
49 Operational Assets
49 Personal Requisition

Purchasing one fleet ship, will reduce the number of fleet ship provisions from 81 to 80, while purchasing 8 ship weapons, will reduce the number of Engineering assets (I believe space weapons come from this category) from 45 to 37. Essentially, each time you purchase one item, you're lowering the number of overall provisions in a certain category by one.

Provisioning projects reward half of the Starbase experience that normal Starbase progression projects do in the same amount of time. Therefore, running a provisioning project comes at the expense of base progression.

Hypothetically, if the provisioning reserves were greatly consumed and we had to run a lot of provisioning projects to increase our stockpile, it would take longer for our Starbase to progress.

This is my source for the aforementioned information:
http://www.stowiki.org/List_of_starbase_projects


Additionally, Doctor Disaster has got some crazy complicated system of crunching the numbers relating to all of our Starbase provisioning and advancement stats. He's in a much better position to answer, on average, how many provisions we add to the stockpile per week. He can probably answer any other related questions as well.

I hope this addresses some of the questions that people may have had :)

Ok, I have been stewing about this now since 5pm yesterday. Part of me wanted to start a new thread as not to push this thread out farther, but then I didn't want to possibly drag people who are not paying attention to this thread into the fray. I REALLY take issue/have a problem with this post:

Quote by Ozy

Soemone mentioned inherent distrust and that no-one in the fleet could do that. Allow me to cut through some hand holding here and shine a hot uncomfortable white light on an unfortunate reality. Starbase camping was RAMPANT after season 6 launched, so much so that the disparity between campers and their fellow members is so grossly distorted that the campers now have the fleet credit ability to purchase every fleet ship and item in the game and STILL have an extremely large amount of credits left. All this to the disadvantage of YOU. I can't tell you how much I petitioned and complained to my fellow executive officers about this, because it isn't fair on anyone.

In fact some fleeties made it a competiion against YOU, to deny YOU the ability to donate to the starbase so they could inflate their already grossly inflated fleet credit holdings.
...
But be aware all this I have mentioned, there are some that would deny you the ability to improve the fleet, it's unfortunate, but true.

Admiral Ozy :)

First off, I don't feel that someone should be instigating and nurturing this type of feeling of distrust amongst fleet members, especially someone in a leadership position. The statements I have highlighted in red serve no purpose but to inflame the situation and bring about a divide amongst fleet members. This is not an attack on Ozy, or anything personal, but I just feel that this divisiveness is uncalled for. I would say this to anyone who posted as such.

Second, in regard to the spawn camping and denial of fleet marks. That's a load of crud. I kept track of when missions would turn over so I could donate. Plain and simple. Same as someone would do in farmville etc... And to be honest the first couple of weeks the projects would turn over at about 1-5am my time so those I did not donate to. And why did I donate, to advance the fleet base projects. I felt the longer items were not donated the longer it would take to move up in the tiers and block access to the higher items like mail, bank etc.... Is that a bad thing wanting the base to move forward? Say someone has the resources to advance and close a project, shouldn't they do so to allow the timer to start so we can get closer to starting the next project and moving forward, or should they just wait for everyone to have a chance to earn/donate what is needed? Who wants to be stuck with a base at tier one while we wait for everyone to earn what is needed to move on? Stagnant project or flowing project, you decide.

Next, no one is denying, or has the ability to deny YOU fleet credits. The reason there are those 1/2 hour missions at the bottom is to fund members with fleet marks. Its says so in the mission notes. Special projects are for larger fleets for all members to generate fleet marks equally. And to be honest they are not that hard to fill. There are not that many choices that I can see where someone could not prep to donate to those (colonists, gamma quad, contraband supplies etc..). What they call for is not so out there(like the borg neural processors) that the average player could not pull them together on their own either via doff missions, exchange or even ask another member for them if it comes down to it(I know I have supplied members with excess I have when asked). So denial of credits is just absurd. I have even been online when a special project was not running and a FC even asked in chat what everyone one wanted to donate so they could start the appropriate mission based on what members had banked to move on.

Was it a competition, no. Was it to help the fleet, yes. I guess this is the basic statement I want to get across, SOME OF US DONATE TO IMPROVE THE BASE for YOU. I know others who have been charged with a gluttony of fleet credits feel the same way. We've chatted about it over the last almost 24 hours. I am not sure if it is known, but when projects get stalled there are those of us who use our resources to move it forward. I know I've personally spent WAY too much on Doffs from the exchange to get things moving. That bar project, some of us could have turned our romulan ale or rotgut to the exchange and received 300K ec Per BOTTLE. I think that amount of EC is worth more then the pittance of credits that it provided. Now getting called out for harming the fleet is just plain hurtful.

As to the statement of those who are actively working to harm the advancement of the fleet, I would hope our leadership takes action to rectify a situation like that.

Once more I have thought about this now for almost a day and it just has yet to sit right with me. Actually last night when I read that my mood changed 100% and my partner called me out on it. I am in no way trying to start, or prolong a flame war of any sort. I am in no way trying to attack anyone. It just felt like that splinter you get that keeps stabbing at you until you decide you have to just go all in and dig it out.

Thanks for listening,

Joe

P.S. Why is there no preview button for posting?

Quote by joenAtl

Ok, I have been stewing about this now since 5pm yesterday. Part of me wanted to start a new thread as not to push this thread out farther, but then I didn't want to possibly drag people who are not paying attention to this thread into the fray. I REALLY take issue/have a problem with this post:

Quote by Ozy

Soemone mentioned inherent distrust and that no-one in the fleet could do that. Allow me to cut through some hand holding here and shine a hot uncomfortable white light on an unfortunate reality. Starbase camping was RAMPANT after season 6 launched, so much so that the disparity between campers and their fellow members is so grossly distorted that the campers now have the fleet credit ability to purchase every fleet ship and item in the game and STILL have an extremely large amount of credits left. All this to the disadvantage of YOU. I can't tell you how much I petitioned and complained to my fellow executive officers about this, because it isn't fair on anyone.

In fact some fleeties made it a competiion against YOU, to deny YOU the ability to donate to the starbase so they could inflate their already grossly inflated fleet credit holdings.
...
But be aware all this I have mentioned, there are some that would deny you the ability to improve the fleet, it's unfortunate, but true.

Admiral Ozy :)

First off, I don't feel that someone should be instigating and nurturing this type of feeling of distrust amongst fleet members, especially someone in a leadership position. The statements I have highlighted in red serve no purpose but to inflame the situation and bring about a divide amongst fleet members. This is not an attack on Ozy, or anything personal, but I just feel that this divisiveness is uncalled for. I would say this to anyone who posted as such.

Second, in regard to the spawn camping and denial of fleet marks. That's a load of crud. I kept track of when missions would turn over so I could donate. Plain and simple. Same as someone would do in farmville etc... And to be honest the first couple of weeks the projects would turn over at about 1-5am my time so those I did not donate to. And why did I donate, to advance the fleet base projects. I felt the longer items were not donated the longer it would take to move up in the tiers and block access to the higher items like mail, bank etc.... Is that a bad thing wanting the base to move forward? Say someone has the resources to advance and close a project, shouldn't they do so to allow the timer to start so we can get closer to starting the next project and moving forward, or should they just wait for everyone to have a chance to earn/donate what is needed? Who wants to be stuck with a base at tier one while we wait for everyone to earn what is needed to move on? Stagnant project or flowing project, you decide.

Next, no one is denying, or has the ability to deny YOU fleet credits. The reason there are those 1/2 hour missions at the bottom is to fund members with fleet marks. Its says so in the mission notes. Special projects are for larger fleets for all members to generate fleet marks equally. And to be honest they are not that hard to fill. There are not that many choices that I can see where someone could not prep to donate to those (colonists, gamma quad, contraband supplies etc..). What they call for is not so out there(like the borg neural processors) that the average player could not pull them together on their own either via doff missions, exchange or even ask another member for them if it comes down to it(I know I have supplied members with excess I have when asked). So denial of credits is just absurd. I have even been online when a special project was not running and a FC even asked in chat what everyone one wanted to donate so they could start the appropriate mission based on what members had banked to move on.

Was it a competition, no. Was it to help the fleet, yes. I guess this is the basic statement I want to get across, SOME OF US DONATE TO IMPROVE THE BASE for YOU. I know others who have been charged with a gluttony of fleet credits feel the same way. We've chatted about it over the last almost 24 hours. I am not sure if it is known, but when projects get stalled there are those of us who use our resources to move it forward. I know I've personally spent WAY too much on Doffs from the exchange to get things moving. That bar project, some of us could have turned our romulan ale or rotgut to the exchange and received 300K ec Per BOTTLE. I think that amount of EC is worth more then the pittance of credits that it provided. Now getting called out for harming the fleet is just plain hurtful.

As to the statement of those who are actively working to harm the advancement of the fleet, I would hope our leadership takes action to rectify a situation like that.

Once more I have thought about this now for almost a day and it just has yet to sit right with me. Actually last night when I read that my mood changed 100% and my partner called me out on it. I am in no way trying to start, or prolong a flame war of any sort. I am in no way trying to attack anyone. It just felt like that splinter you get that keeps stabbing at you until you decide you have to just go all in and dig it out.

Thanks for listening,

Joe

P.S. Why is there no preview button for posting?

Very well said...

Currently many projects stall, so plenty of opportunity for members to donate.

My motivations were to donate to the projects to move the base progression, I donate very little now as my resources are depleted and I feel the Starbase progression has to settle into a steady pace for all member to steadily donate etc.

Just think guys, we are hitting 100k FXP in each category over the coming weeks, we got to do all that again plus 50k to reach the 250k to reach T5. So going to be I reckon at least another 4-6months before all categories at T5... So again lots of opportunity for donations.

Cheers

First off, I don't feel that someone should be instigating and nurturing this type of feeling of distrust amongst fleet members, especially someone in a leadership position. The statements I have highlighted in red serve no purpose but to inflame the situation and bring about a divide amongst fleet members. This is not an attack on Ozy, or anything personal, but I just feel that this divisiveness is uncalled for. I would say this to anyone who posted as such.

I'm instigating nothing, I'm making an informed observation of what exactly took place when season 6 went live, and people took it upon themselves to camp the projects, some even took it upon themselves to make it a competition between them to see who could fill the projects the fastest, the moment they became available. It's that selfishness I take extreme dislike to. That's devisive. That's prioritising their own greed over other fleeties who would like to raise their own amount of fleet credits.

Second, in regard to the spawn camping and denial of fleet marks. That's a load of crud. I kept track of when missions would turn over so I could donate. Plain and simple. Same as someone would do in farmville etc... And to be honest the first couple of weeks the projects would turn over at about 1-5am my time so those I did not donate to. And why did I donate, to advance the fleet base projects. I felt the longer items were not donated the longer it would take to move up in the tiers and block access to the higher items like mail, bank etc.... Is that a bad thing wanting the base to move forward? Say someone has the resources to advance and close a project, shouldn't they do so to allow the timer to start so we can get closer to starting the next project and moving forward, or should they just wait for everyone to have a chance to earn/donate what is needed? Who wants to be stuck with a base at tier one while we wait for everyone to earn what is needed to move on? Stagnant project or flowing project, you decide.

If you recall a singled out no one, but here you are implying my words were aimed esxclusively at you. But if we are on the point of continention regarding moving the base forward. I'd argue that its far more fair to donate incrementally (unless its stalled for a while) to enable other users a chance. Instead of blasting them completely with everything youve got denying anyone else ANY inpute to fleet projects for 3-48 hours.

Next, no one is denying, or has the ability to deny YOU fleet credits. The reason there are those 1/2 hour missions at the bottom is to fund members with fleet marks.

Acually, I disagree. If a 10,000 Dilithium requirment gives you 10,000 fleet credits, and ONE person alone donates all of that in less than 10 seconds as soon as the project goes live, yeah that's unfair. because all 10,000 went to that person because they camped it, AND denied anyone else several thousand. Is that not selfishness? Those half-hour projects award a pitance in comparison. Apples and Oranges.

Was it a competition, no.

For some it was absolutely, and there is evidence to support that, but i wont go into that atm for reasons of confidentiality. Suffice to say, there was sufficient evidence that some took it upon themselves to compete in the camping of projects, even going so far as to congratulate themselves about it in fleet chat.

This is exactly why Ive ahd hesittation in adopting an open system, because there ARE some fleet members who would explot it, and that camping is just testament to that. That isnt tarring everyone with the same brush its reaffirming human nature, some people are just like that, regardless of what organisation they're in. We're not all sunshine and sparkles in the fleet, we're a varied bunch and as such rules and controls need to be provided in order to maintain equality.

As to the statement of those who are actively working to harm the advancement of the fleet, I would hope our leadership takes action to rectify a situation like that.

Of course and we continue to do that.

Quote by joenAtl

First off, I don't feel that someone should be instigating and nurturing this type of feeling of distrust amongst fleet members, especially someone in a leadership position. The statements I have highlighted in red serve no purpose but to inflame the situation and bring about a divide amongst fleet members. This is not an attack on Ozy, or anything personal, but I just feel that this divisiveness is uncalled for. I would say this to anyone who posted as such.

Second, in regard to the spawn camping and denial of fleet marks. That's a load of crud. I kept track of when missions would turn over so I could donate. Plain and simple. Same as someone would do in farmville etc... And to be honest the first couple of weeks the projects would turn over at about 1-5am my time so those I did not donate to. And why did I donate, to advance the fleet base projects. I felt the longer items were not donated the longer it would take to move up in the tiers and block access to the higher items like mail, bank etc.... Is that a bad thing wanting the base to move forward? Say someone has the resources to advance and close a project, shouldn't they do so to allow the timer to start so we can get closer to starting the next project and moving forward, or should they just wait for everyone to have a chance to earn/donate what is needed? Who wants to be stuck with a base at tier one while we wait for everyone to earn what is needed to move on? Stagnant project or flowing project, you decide.

Next, no one is denying, or has the ability to deny YOU fleet credits. The reason there are those 1/2 hour missions at the bottom is to fund members with fleet marks. Its says so in the mission notes. Special projects are for larger fleets for all members to generate fleet marks equally. And to be honest they are not that hard to fill. There are not that many choices that I can see where someone could not prep to donate to those (colonists, gamma quad, contraband supplies etc..). What they call for is not so out there(like the borg neural processors) that the average player could not pull them together on their own either via doff missions, exchange or even ask another member for them if it comes down to it(I know I have supplied members with excess I have when asked). So denial of credits is just absurd. I have even been online when a special project was not running and a FC even asked in chat what everyone one wanted to donate so they could start the appropriate mission based on what members had banked to move on.

Was it a competition, no. Was it to help the fleet, yes. I guess this is the basic statement I want to get across, SOME OF US DONATE TO IMPROVE THE BASE for YOU. I know others who have been charged with a gluttony of fleet credits feel the same way. We've chatted about it over the last almost 24 hours. I am not sure if it is known, but when projects get stalled there are those of us who use our resources to move it forward. I know I've personally spent WAY too much on Doffs from the exchange to get things moving. That bar project, some of us could have turned our romulan ale or rotgut to the exchange and received 300K ec Per BOTTLE. I think that amount of EC is worth more then the pittance of credits that it provided. Now getting called out for harming the fleet is just plain hurtful.

As to the statement of those who are actively working to harm the advancement of the fleet, I would hope our leadership takes action to rectify a situation like that.

Once more I have thought about this now for almost a day and it just has yet to sit right with me. Actually last night when I read that my mood changed 100% and my partner called me out on it. I am in no way trying to start, or prolong a flame war of any sort. I am in no way trying to attack anyone. It just felt like that splinter you get that keeps stabbing at you until you decide you have to just go all in and dig it out.

Thanks for listening,

Joe

P.S. Why is there no preview button for posting?

I'm sorry for butting in, but I think there's a bit of confusion here.

You believe that Ozy was referring to yourself or players like you who were timing their gaming to help complete projects and other such strategies to help complete projects quickly. He wasn't. That was perfectly normal and we're fine with that.

There was however a small group of players who would actively prevent other members from donating to projects, gloated about it and turned it into a game to see who could donate to the most. This is what he was referring to.

Quote by NicholasJohn16

[quote="joenAtl" post=51919

I'm sorry for butting in, but I think there's a bit of confusion here.

You believe that Ozy was referring to yourself or players like you who were timing their gaming to help complete projects and other such strategies to help complete projects quickly. He wasn't. That was perfectly normal and we're fine with that.

There was however a small group of players who would actively prevent other members from donating to projects, gloated about it and turned it into a game to see who could donate to the most. This is what he was referring to.

If that is the case then that is what needs to be said. As it is right now myself, and others who are in and around the top 10 contributors felt like we were singled out for being in the position we are in. Lumping those who were doing others wrong and active members who felt they were helping in a statement like "those who could buy up all the resources and then some" doesn't make things clear.

Say you are JR member X, and you read that post, who are your going to think they are talking about? Your mind goes to the top 10 contributors.

It did hurt some feelings, I'm going to be 100% honest there. The whole post just put a bad taste in peoples mouths about what they had contributed, and in again all honesty is actually putting shade on future contributions from said people to fleet projects.

Again if you have the tag of Admiral on your post what you say goes a good deal deeper with members of the fleer IMO then some Jr member X. (Which I think might be a new screen name for myself ;) )

Quote by joenAtl

Quote by NicholasJohn16

[quote="joenAtl" post=51919

I'm sorry for butting in, but I think there's a bit of confusion here.

You believe that Ozy was referring to yourself or players like you who were timing their gaming to help complete projects and other such strategies to help complete projects quickly. He wasn't. That was perfectly normal and we're fine with that.

There was however a small group of players who would actively prevent other members from donating to projects, gloated about it and turned it into a game to see who could donate to the most. This is what he was referring to.

If that is the case then that is what needs to be said. As it is right now myself, and others who are in and around the top 10 contributors felt like we were singled out for being in the position we are in. Lumping those who were doing others wrong and active members who felt they were helping in a statement like "those who could buy up all the resources and then some" doesn't make things clear.

Say you are JR member X, and you read that post, who are your going to think they are talking about? Your mind goes to the top 10 contributors.

It did hurt some feelings, I'm going to be 100% honest there. The whole post just put a bad taste in peoples mouths about what they had contributed, and in again all honesty is actually putting shade on future contributions from said people to fleet projects.

Again if you have the tag of Admiral on your post what you say goes a good deal deeper with members of the fleer IMO then some Jr member X. (Which I think might be a new screen name for myself ;) )

At the end of the day Joen, I stated and defined them as campers. So unless you're defining yourself as a camper, then you shouldnt have felt it was about you at all. Thats basically it. There was nothing ambigious about whom I was referring to.

I saw it myself and it was really frustrating which is why I stopped contributing anything to the Starbase other then fleet marks for awhile because it is beyond aggravating to sit there waiting for the thing to count down to donate then watch it click over and as I'm in the process of donating the entire thing fills up.

This is why we are in a situation now where fleet projects sometimes stall, because some players no longer even bother checking the Starbase projects tab unless someone announces it's stalled. It's called the Pike Syndrome.

I recall before the launch of Season 6, when fleet members and leaders alike, publicly voiced their concern to Cryptic in the STO forums, about how the fleet holdings and provisioning systems had the potential to be incredibly divisive amongst the membership of fleets. I recall their public reply being that the creation of internal fleet politics, is what they had intended.

I can only guess as to what their motivation behind this was. I'm going to assume that they didn't necessarily mean that they wanted to cause conflict amongst their playerbase, but that instead, they wanted to make fleets a more lively component of the game, and didn't mind that a potential side-effect of their system, was that it would spark passionate, internal debate. Well, they've definitely succeeded.

This thread has been host to a terrific number of thoughts and ideas surrounding the fleet stores that I, and perhaps other fleet members hadn't previously considered. I'm confident in saying that your collective voices and opinions on the topic have been loudly heard by the leadership :)

I believe that this thread has served it's intended purpose, in that it has members and leaders alike, thinking about whether an evolution of our current system would be beneficial, and if so, what form that evolution might take, taking into consideration all of the points that have arisen from this discussion. In the eighteen pages since the inception of this thread, it has however, become somewhat derailed, and is in my opinion, no longer contributing to positive, forward thinking momentum regarding our fleet holdings.

I'd like to thank everyone for their passionate input. I believe everyone's input has been heard, and that we're not likely to see any additional input on this topic that hasn't been considered. For that reason, I'm in favour of locking down this thread and addressing any branching topics of discussion in alternate threads.

Thank you all for you input, but on Voleron's wonderful note, the thread's been locked.