No same-gender romances in SWTOR.

I published this today on the SWTOR SGRA website. It got deleted by the mods because it apparently was not on topic and caused alot of argument about semantics. They gave me a warning for hijacking the thread, oh well.

So, CALL IT WHAT IT IS

One group gets romantic stories tailored for their orientation, another group is left out from that opportunity. What might you call that? Make up your own mind after reading the definition below.

From the definition of the word "discrimination" in Wikipedia:

"Discrimination is the actual behavior towards members of another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups.[2] Moral philosophers have defined it as disadvantageous treatment or consideration."

Remember discrimination does not have to be intentional for it to be such. I know many of you balk at such a harsh word, but really ask yourself, is there a group of people being excluded from a certain kind of immersion, identification of story, and enjoyment that another group has available to them? If so, again refer to the definition above. Or do you simply object to this definition? Or does the premise that anyone is being excluded totally miss the mark?

As someone who is in publishing, I'm always careful about the words that I choose, and the sources I cite.

Discrimination at the very core of it's definition, is discernment, taste, acumen, or perception.

Discrimination isn't by default, a bad thing. Every time you make a choice for dinner, or which route your are going to take on a trip, is discrimination.

That said, "discrimination" as it's being used here gets thrown around too easily. Discrimination should be taken very seriously, and throwing the word around with little regard to the availability of factual information cheapens it.

I stand by my earlier statement that BioWare has an excellent track record of inclusion in the games that they develop (KOTOR, Dragon Age 1 & 2, and Mass Effect 3). There has to be a very good reason for them to NOT be including SGRA, and a similarly good reason for them NOT to announce why yet. In spite of all this, the very fact that the Mods keep recreating the SGRA Voting thread every time it reaches a certain size tells me they aren't "discriminating". In fact they keep encouraging the discussion, even as they remain tight lipped on their reasons why.

"Discrimination" is the last word I would be throwing at BioWare right now. Especially when we have no facts upon which to base what should be a very serious accusation, and BioWare's previous track record. If they come out tomorrow and say, "we didn't include the SGRA romances because we hate fags," I'll join you in harping on them. But for all the rumors flying around it could be anything from lack of development hours to contractual obligations or any number of other reasons.

The now infamous "no" answer to SGRA tells me that BioWare CAN'T talk about it right now. Heaven knows the folks at BioWare are a talkative bunch and the delivery of the answer is as out of character as the answer itself is. I suspect, in time, BioWare will have the discussion when they can.

DakonKor. Yah, very good outlook on the issue. The SGRA thread gets so contentious sometimes, it's hard not to respond in kind. People say some hateful things there. The mods shut it down regularly to clean it up, so yes they do care about the community. This was the first time I was actually warned about a post, so I learned a lesson. The silence from Bioware is deafening, but am giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Bioware isn't discriminating us any more than the rest of the world is. Unfortunately most of the world is straight. In media there's a lot of straight romance and rarely gay romance. A lot of the gay romance in media is either gay male stereotypes or sexy lesbians because straight guys like seeing sexy woman having sex and like looking down on effeminated guys.

Quote by Zeddikas

I published this today on the SWTOR SGRA website. It got deleted by the mods because it apparently was not on topic and caused alot of argument about semantics. They gave me a warning for hijacking the thread, oh well.

Bioware are insulting us in the way they treat the same-gender romance arc discussions on the forum. Whenever someone opens a new thread on the general forum about SGRA it very quickly gets closed and redirected to the existing thread in the backwater called suggestions. Threads on other subjects only get redirected when there already is another thread on the same subject on the first page of the general forum. As i'm writing this there are new threads on the first page of the general forum about WoW, twitter, beta access, trolls, character creation, last fridays update, open beta and lifetime accounts. All of which have already had numerous threads. Try creating another thread about SGRA and it gets closed and redirected quickly. Zeddikas, you didn't hijack the thread, you got redirected there by zealots.

Quote by DakonKor

In spite of all this, the very fact that the Mods keep recreating the SGRA Voting thread every time it reaches a certain size tells me they aren't "discriminating". In fact they keep encouraging the discussion, even as they remain tight lipped on their reasons why.

They are encouraging us to keep the discussion in one thread on the backwater called suggestions. They don't want SGRA being discussed on the visible general forum. It's their forum, they are allowed to say what we can and can't do, but they are insulting us by not treating this subject in the same way as they do any other subject.

I read your post Z and didn't think it was all that bad. I hope at some point BioWare comes out with a reason. I'm sure there is a good one or at least come up with something believable.

Quote by nniicc

In media there's a lot of straight romance and rarely gay romance. A lot of the gay romance in media is either gay male stereotypes or sexy lesbians because straight guys like seeing sexy woman having sex and like looking down on effeminated guys.

I see this changing, at least when it comes to the U.S. market, and depending on what audience the show is targetted at. The younger the demographic (but over the age of "innocence") the more likely you are to see non-stereotypical gay characters.

Yes, I'll admit to having watched it, but I loved how Greek gave us a variety of gay characters (from, he's gay?! to HOLY CRAP did he just "flame on"?) and both positive and negative gay couplings.

Glee has been treating the subject pretty well. I was initially turned off that the gay kid was so obviously gay, but with the addition of closeted Korofski and now Blaine, there's a bit more variety now.

I've been flabbergasted by Torchwood on Starz. I was afraid the Americanization of Torchwood would essentially castrate Jack (and initially it seemed to) but holy crap, we've seen more male on male nudity than I think I've ever seen on the non-internet connected screen. ;-)

It's the same generational break I see in my own personal life. People of the younger generations (say younger Gen-Xers and below) could care less, while Gen Xers tend to be ambivalent, and the older generations tend to be anti-homosexuality.

Bringing it back to BioWare though... They could shut down the discussion altogether if they choose. One of their writers posted a poignant article about the tyranny of the majority and the perception that including SGRAs in Dragon Age 2 was seen as giving the gay community something extra instead of it just being an equal option in gaming. In all of this I've learned that LucasArts has donated money to pro-gay marriage organizations. This is why the current "contractual" restriction regarding their server provider seems a logical possibility. Such a situation, being a legal document, and something that needs to be treated carefully, could easily explain the silence.

Simple fact is. We don't know. I just personally believe that jumping to the worst possible conclusion until we actually know something does neither us, nor them, any good. An extreme scenario, but if BioWare announced tomorrow that contractual obligations had prevented them from including SGRAs, however, as soon as they can move their server infrastructure internally in 6 months, they will be activating the content since it's actually ready to go, people would have worked themselves into a frenzy against the wrong people and for the wrong reason.

Quote by DakonKor

In spite of all this, the very fact that the Mods keep recreating the SGRA Voting thread every time it reaches a certain size tells me they aren't "discriminating". In fact they keep encouraging the discussion, even as they remain tight lipped on their reasons why.

I wouldn't look on this with any optimism. One of the largest and longest ongoing discussions was the space combat poll. The poll title was "Are you happy with space combat" with a Yes, No and Undecided option. The post then explains, somewhere inside of it, that it the real meaning is "Are you happy with the version of space combat we have implemented." however, the masses who click the link and see "Are you happy with space combat" open the poll and simply click "yes" thinking they are voting to have space combat or are they happy space combat is in the game, not the true intention of the post, skewing the results.

That thread has been closed and reopened dozens of times due to the large amount of people unhappy with the single player starfox minigame, but neither the mods or the devs have any intention of taking any of the suggestions or desires in the thread to heart and implementing them into the game. It is simply closed and reopened because of space issues and it is a handy place to keep all of the trash they don't want to see.

So, that said, having them constantly close and reopen the same gender romance poll thread is not promising in any way. It has essentially become "File 13" or "The round filing cabinet" or "the rubbish bin" where they can be sure people will go and chat up a storm without having to deal with it anywhere else.

At least that's how I feel about it based on their track record.

Quote by DakonKor

I've been flabbergasted by Torchwood on Starz. I was afraid the Americanization of Torchwood would essentially castrate Jack (and initially it seemed to) but holy crap, we've seen more male on male nudity than I think I've ever seen on the non-internet connected screen. ;-)

Thats Starz for you. They love nudity. Watch their Camelot or Spartacus. Tons of nudity. Yay!! Spartacus has a couple of gay characters as well, portrayed in a non cliche way, I'd say.

Quote by enrapture

Thats Starz for you. They love nudity. Watch their Camelot or Spartacus. Tons of nudity. Yay!! Spartacus has a couple of gay characters as well, portrayed in a non cliche way, I'd say.

This is so strange for me... I had Starz for years and were the best movie channel. Apparently I stopped watching just as they started doing originals. Had no idea they were so happy about nudity (sounds like Skinimax is losing their market). I'm certainly not objecting as far as Torchwood is concerned. I've kinda wanted to go back and watch Spartacus, I'm just not so such I could handle the apparent gore the commercials seem to display.

Stephen Reid says on twitter, that they are working on the promised update about SGRA and that there hasn't been an update so because of things outside of his control.
http://twitter.com/#!/Rockjaw/status/111855756583780352
http://twitter.com/#!/Rockjaw/status/111860241636929536

Finally the long awaited official statement:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=486040

It's a promised feature now. Thank you Bioware!

Great News :)

Woot! Very good news.

YAY. Thank you Bioware!

A second statement by Stephen Reid of Bioware

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9082483#edit9082483

And his third statement:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9084192#edit9084192

This is great news. Thanks also for posting the updates, i wouldnt of found them. :D

Quote by enrapture

This is great news. Thanks also for posting the updates, i wouldnt of found them. :D

The dev tracker is a handy thing for this.