No same-gender romances in SWTOR.

I don't undertand why you make it SO EASY to trample on our dignity! It is NOT ok and it is OK a small issue!

SWTOR is about story to a major part. Romance is a big plot of every human story, so excluding us, especially when Bioware had so good experiences with DA gay romances, is nothing but a trampling on our dignity and honor and I will not take it! How much more must happen that we say ENOUGH?

It cuts my heart, because I loved SWTOR and Bioware games: but my decision is clear. I cancel my preorder, boycott the game and every Bioware game.

Quote by Elikal

It cuts my heart, because I loved SWTOR and Bioware games: but my decision is clear. I cancel my preorder, boycott the game and every Bioware game.

You may be attacking the wrong people there. Bioware as a company have always been quite accommodating and are planning to include such things in Mass Effect 3 which they are currently working on. I find it hard to believe they choose to cut it from this game and not the others.

It's much more likely it came from over their heads.

But yeah it does really suck but I don't know what we can do. I always believe in the ability to vote with your wallet (which is why I don't believe in life time subscriptions, you lose your power) but honestly the amount of units already sold for SWTOR, I can't see it making much difference.

We really would be cutting of our noses to spite our face but if you believe that strongly then you absolutely have the right to show your dissatisfaction and walk away. I don't think anybody can blame you for that.

Quote by Halish

Quote by Elikal

It cuts my heart, because I loved SWTOR and Bioware games: but my decision is clear. I cancel my preorder, boycott the game and every Bioware game.

You may be attacking the wrong people there. Bioware as a company have always been quite accommodating and are planning to include such things in Mass Effect 3 which they are currently working on. I find it hard to believe they choose to cut it from this game and not the others.

It's much more likely it came from over their heads.

But yeah it does really suck but I don't know what we can do. I always believe in the ability to vote with your wallet (which is why I don't believe in life time subscriptions, you lose your power) but honestly the amount of units already sold for SWTOR, I can't see it making much difference.

We really would be cutting of our noses to spite our face but if you believe that strongly then you absolutely have the right to show your dissatisfaction and walk away. I don't think anybody can blame you for that.

We are always pressed and we retreat. They know they get through with it. It may not make a difference. But if even WE don't stand for our dignity, we truly do not deserve it! And if you think those are harsh words, I am sorry, but that is how I feel.

I have let myself beat up for the right to be gay and out, and I am NOT going to stand down when I am considerably LESS threatened and the same our dignity is again at stake.

Quote by SorenStarkiller

Would you stop playing Zelda just because you rescue a princess and not a prince...even though the elf man is clearly gay? No.

Whaaaat?!? Xandir is gay???

I wrote this in my journal.
===================================

Recently Bioware said that in Star Wars The Old Republic will be no same gender romance arcs. While it has caused the expected heated debates, they know they will get through with it. Because they can do it with us.

In the Melian Dialogue of Thukydides history of the Greek War, when Athens wanted to raid the independent, small nation of Melos, they said: the strong do as they please and the weak have to suffer it. Apparently 2500 years later humanity hasn’t changed. Those who have no lobby are victim of prejudice and must suffer dishonouring their integrity.

Many gay fellow gamers told me, but SWTOR is such a great game, and a boycott would not change anything. And even more say, it is just a game, what does it matter?

Let me say to this a few things. I understand, a boycott likely would not change a thing. Too powerful and influential are those who hate us, those to whom our very existence is unbearable and who clearly would want to see or tolerate our destruction. It is true, the chances we can effect this are minimal. But for me, it is a question of moral integrity to stand for what I believe in. Either I believe in equality and respect and stand for it, or I accept and stay silent when the honour of others is trampled. There is no middle ground in questions like this. Alas, it is a very common thing in humanity, that when a minority is dishonoured, silenced and mistreated, the majority-society shrugs and says, what do I care. I am not black or gay or Jewish. And so injustice prevails.

Since WHEN is the argument, it doesn’t change a thing of any validity??? If you know a product is made with children work, you STOP buying it. Period. You don’t claim, hey but it won’t change a thing, or others do it too. No, you boycott products made by children, because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO! You do not bargain with companies who neglect some peoples integrity. End of story.

Others say it is just a game. To them I say: in matters of honour, respect and racism, there ARE no small matters! Imagine for a second Bioware would have announced, it had no black people in them. It would cause a major uprising. But since it is “just some gays” many shrug it off or even applaud it. Not so long ago, black people in America were forced to stay in certain spaces in a bus, and Jews in Germany were forced to wear a David Star. A small matter, people said back them. What do you fight against such small matter, they said. If a black person is forced to sit in a separated place, they said, it is because we do not wish to see black people close to us. This is no different. People don’t want to see gay people. They want them away, invisible, not exist. In a story focussed game, where romance stories are an integral part as in Bioware RPGs, the absence of gay & lesbian romance stories is not a small thing, it is a BIG statement, one that will have great influence.

Entertainment industry has a much greater influence than people admit or want to accept. When comic reading youths read about Gay Superheroes like Wiccan and Hulkling from Marvel, or see gay people in TV shows like Glee, it has a considerable influence to create tolerance and acceptance. It is a great thing. And the same is the message to exclude it. Such messages are of the greatest importance, for, to paraphrase Kreia, the world is moved from such small angles, through such small matters. In 2011, when so many games, TV shows, comics asf of the entire Entertainment industry have no issues to show gay people, this is a ultra conservative signal and something not to understand. A gay romance is not dirtier than a straight romance. Either love is sacred or love is dirty, and I vehemently deny that gay love is dirty when straight love isn’t. THAT is the signal such a decision shows. And that is why it is unacceptable to support Bioware with ANY game it further releases.

You can tell me a thousand times about how TOR is a product to be sold. I think that is bollocks. The gay superheroes never made people buy less Marvel comics. Sims sold record breaking despite even having gay sex and gay marriage! Fable, Dragon Age and other games who had gay romance and gay sex also sold well and were very popular. But this means to give in to those with hate, despise and prejudice. In terms of respect, dignity and equal rights is no small matter, no compromise. Just imagine for a moment, Bioware would have excluded black people. But gay people are fewer and they know they can do it with us, because too few will have solidarity. They know they will get through with it.

Adorno once said, the power of good is not that it triumphs over evil, but that we can say, despite all you did to annihilate us, we are still here. This is a day that is very unfortunate and tragic. A great wrong was done. But I know how it goes. “I am not gay, why should I care.” If I were not a spiritual person who had decided long ago that the human world is a place were darkness, chaos and selfishness reign and there is no hope in this world, I probably would have gone mad long ago. So I just see again what I already learned the hard way. That respect, decency and virtue are rare.

Elikal, I can understand your anger and frustration with TOR and Bioware, but I'm afraid your pointing the finger at the wrong people. As has been stated a few times, Bioware does over all have a good track record on include gay romances in their games and have a general pro-gay stance. They even did a poll to see if people would like their to same gender romances and 15% over all wanted them even more wanted their to be both same gender and opposite gender romance options.

From what I know gay characters are missing from Star Wars just as much as they are in Star Trek. There's no gay characters in any of the films and I've never seen one in any of their other games. (I don't claim to be a large fan of the series, so I may be missing something.)

This sounds to be more of a problem with the franchise than it is with the game manufacturer. I wouldn't be surprised if this was decided by the franchise holders and not by Bioware and in that case, boycotting the game would have little effect. If you're wanting to make your stand against not including same gender romances, you should instead boycott the entire IP.

A MMO with story is something different than a film or a TV series. I write a book or a TV episiode, I as author just follow my creativity. I do not have to depict all sort of races or sexual orientations.

A MMO based on story and a RPG heavily focussed on romance stories, where players want to Roleplay THEIR character is something ENTIRELY different, and consequently there are very different measures then with a movie or what.


"I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes?
Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions;
fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons,
subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means,
warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is?
If you prick us do we not bleed?
If you tickle us do we not laugh?
If you poison us do we not die?
And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?"

There actually are gay and lesbian characters in Star Wars. Even in the original BioWare Star Wars game. Juhani, a companion character in the first Star Wars game, is a lesbian. Her romance was cut (poorly) due to various factors (some say LA pulling it, some say time and content), but the poor removal of it made it accessible by both male and female PCs. Seeing bits and pieces of the romance bits leftover.

In one of the official Star Wars books, a Mandalorian commando Goran Beviin is openly gay with his long-term relationship lover Medrit. They even are married. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia also notes this.

Those are just a few examples. The material of Star Wars IS dense and open enough to include gays and lesbians, but omitting them in the game itself, and otherwise making it a very heteronormative affair (since flirting/persuasion/dialogue options for more social classes like the Imperial Agent and Smuggler are only opposite-sex driven due to this), it just makes for a less enriching and engrossing and representative universe. More than just books and single player games, this MMO marketed at everyone on the force of 'making your own personal story and character,' where your choices matter and you have true impact on the world and an evolving story, doesn't seem that inclusive by excluding options that are part of some of our stories. It'd be as poor as if they did not include the option to be asian or black or female in the game.

Quote by Elikal

I don't undertand why you make it SO EASY to trample on our dignity! It is NOT ok and it is OK a small issue!

SWTOR is about story to a major part. Romance is a big plot of every human story, so excluding us, especially when Bioware had so good experiences with DA gay romances, is nothing but a trampling on our dignity and honor and I will not take it! How much more must happen that we say ENOUGH?

It cuts my heart, because I loved SWTOR and Bioware games: but my decision is clear. I cancel my preorder, boycott the game and every Bioware game.

As much as I believe your boycott idea is on the side of right, I don't think it will actually do us any good. There will be plenty of people on the other side of this issue who will loudly agree with their pulling same sex romance from the story boards, and if our voices are busy boycotting the game, how will they be heard? I firmly believe that we should go ahead and play the game. Pay our dues. And let our voices be quietly heard by the powers that be, by writing letters, etc. In order to be heard by them, we need to be paying customers, and its harder to ignore a paying customer than a rabble-rouser on the outside who asked for a refund and isn't paying their company any money. I respect your right to boycott. I really do, but I don't think your boycott will really do any good. Lets be the rational ones here. Show the people at Bioware that we're actually the reasonable ones, not the hateful people who rant about queers and all that on their message boards. Bide our time, and I firmly believe they'll give us the justice we deserve.

Quote by Solari

You do realise as Jedi we can't have relationships! So you'll just have to contend with a good Mind F**K! ;)

THIS!

As a Jedi you should treat your companions well and if they start to fall for you just say *my heart belongs to another. The Force.* and be done with it.

For me personally I don't play mmos for the possibility of romance with an NPC. I've got an entire guild to hit on. ;)

I do understand the frustration with them omitting gay romance arcs but it isn't a deal breaker for me.

I'm undecided if I play a female toon to get to romance males...or play as a spunky male toon & be stuck with a female love interest.

What will you guys choose? Which is the better option? Or just go cyborg n fall for a computer lol

Quote by enrapture

What will you guys choose? Which is the better option? Or just go cyborg n fall for a computer lol

lol I considered playing a male toon for like, half a second. Then I remembered that every time I've tried playing a male toon in any game, I get bored with him in under an hour. All female toons for me, as usual.

I'm insulted by Bioware because I assumed that SGRA would be included. If I boycott this game, I need to boycott all games that don't have gay characters. I don't know any MMORPG with gay characters.

Quote by enrapture

I'm undecided if I play a female toon to get to romance males...or play as a spunky male toon & be stuck with a female love interest.

What will you guys choose? Which is the better option? Or just go cyborg n fall for a computer lol

I assume cyborgs still have gender :p.

I don't think i could play a female toon and pretend it's a male. Male toons wearing tight pants have an unnatural absence of a bulge. Female toons always seem to be big breasted.

As I read through this, I can't do but sit back and laugh. (ha)
I find it rather amusing some of the rants and raves, i understand some, shake my head at others, and just think to my self, seriously?
No matter what anyone says or does, there are going to be the homophobes, and with that same grain of salt, there is going to be those who think the world owes them something because there are homophobes. You are not going to win any prizes by getting up into someones face and yelling, I'm gay, lesbian(etc etc), YOU OWE me. Make a point? Yes, but like some people have said, you must do it respectfully, if you make a stink, you'll just get thrown out, if you make a stink but sugar coat it, they may take a second look. But anyways, i digress. If you are going to get mad at someone for something, make sure it's the right person, like some people have said, it could be LA and not Bioware, or we don't know why, cause no-one is saying. Wellllll..... Some of you know me, and know "who" some of my friends are, so you did NOT hear this from me...

The Official, Unofficial, doesn't exist, you'll have to take my word for it cause I won't be able to prove nor back it up statement.

Neither Bioware, nor Lucas Arts has any problems, issues or concerns about adding or protraying same sex relationships in their games or stories. This ideal has only relatively recently "come out of the closet". Both Bioware and Lucas Arts does infact have several same sex couples working in their respective industries and has no plans to belittle or estrange their genuine love and/or relationships. SW:TOR has IN-FACT recorded several hours of same-sex conversations and relationships for various arcs, and has every intention to add them into the game. Unfortunately, the company who actually owns and operates the physical hardware to enable the game to be played, instituted a clause in their contract stating that they could refuse the right to operate if anything they felt was offensive was placed on their systems. This was an unforseen issue that neither Bioware nor Lucas Arts anticipated. And unfortunately due to the short timeframe remaining until release, there is currently not the time nor resources to move it to a new provider or time to setup a new personal infrastructure. Whether we move the whole operation to a new provider, or we invest in placing on a personal system our end goal is the same as our starting goal, to let all of our players play our games the way they want to play them.

*edited for length, content, and personal stuff.. ;)

Ranir,

Thank you. I had hoped something like this would be the case, but you can never be sure.

Quote by Ranir

As I read through this, I can't do but sit back and laugh. (ha)
I find it rather amusing some of the rants and raves, i understand some, shake my head at others, and just think to my self, seriously?
No matter what anyone says or does, there are going to be the homophobes, and with that same grain of salt, there is going to be those who think the world owes them something because there are homophobes. You are not going to win any prizes by getting up into someones face and yelling, I'm gay, lesbian(etc etc), YOU OWE me. Make a point? Yes, but like some people have said, you must do it respectfully, if you make a stink, you'll just get thrown out, if you make a stink but sugar coat it, they may take a second look. But anyways, i digress. If you are going to get mad at someone for something, make sure it's the right person, like some people have said, it could be LA and not Bioware, or we don't know why, cause no-one is saying. Wellllll..... Some of you know me, and know "who" some of my friends are, so you did NOT hear this from me...

The Official, Unofficial, doesn't exist, you'll have to take my word for it cause I won't be able to prove nor back it up statement.

Neither Bioware, nor Lucas Arts has any problems, issues or concerns about adding or protraying same sex relationships in their games or stories. This ideal has only relatively recently "come out of the closet". Both Bioware and Lucas Arts does infact have several same sex couples working in their respective industries and has no plans to belittle or estrange their genuine love and/or relationships. SW:TOR has IN-FACT recorded several hours of same-sex conversations and relationships for various arcs, and has every intention to add them into the game. Unfortunately, the company who actually owns and operates the physical hardware to enable the game to be played, instituted a clause in their contract stating that they could refuse the right to operate if anything they felt was offensive was placed on their systems. This was an unforseen issue that neither Bioware nor Lucas Arts anticipated. And unfortunately due to the short timeframe remaining until release, there is currently not the time nor resources to move it to a new provider or time to setup a new personal infrastructure. Whether we move the whole operation to a new provider, or we invest in placing on a personal system our end goal is the same as our starting goal, to let all of our players play our games the way they want to play them.

*edited for length, content, and personal stuff.. ;)

What does that change? How does the saying go... the road to hell is made with good intentions. And: Well meant is the opposite of well made. I can respect their desire not to discriminate us. But in the end of the day, the decided we did not matter enough to push the issue. And that is why Bioware and Lucasarts is a culprit. They gave in to someone's bigotry. Bioware, EA and Lucasarts are no small companies! They could have forced the issue for the sake of justice, but they DID NOT. It isn't what they *wanted* to do that matters, but what they DID, or rather did not.

What does that change? How does the saying go... the road to hell is made with good intentions. And: Well meant is the opposite of well made. I can respect their desire not to discriminate us. But in the end of the day, the decided we did not matter enough to push the issue. And that is why Bioware and Lucasarts is a culprit. They gave in to someone's bigotry. Bioware, EA and Lucasarts are no small companies! They could have forced the issue for the sake of justice, but they DID NOT. It isn't what they *wanted* to do that matters, but what they DID, or rather did not.

I appreciate what you're saying, but at the end of the day, Bioware and Lucasarts are businesses. At this late stage, the changes necessary to introduce same-sex relationships (by which i mean software changes, programming, voice work, art, as well as contract changes, hardware changes and more) would probably have cost more money (contract re-negotiation, early termination of contracts, delays to the release date).

They are in this to make money from a product people enjoy. Therefore they have to balance the demands of gamers with company time and resources.

Moderation Note
Hey guys, I know we're all very passionate about our gaming and that our community is treated equally, but let's also try to be respectful to one another in this thread.

Sigh, almost equally disheartning is the silence of the press. Only very few websites even reported this. It seems making gay gaymers 2nd best isn't a news anymore.

You know, my friends, I spent the last 48 hours with little sleep, always going back to the official forum, waiting for a replay in the Dev Tracker... but dead silence. It felt terrible. Like the backstab from a friend. I can hardly say HOW hurt and disappointed I feel. I am still in denial, like, this can't be! It must be a small mistake! I yet don't really, emotionally accept, this is it.

But I can't play SWTOR like this. I just can not. I would feel the pain of betrayal every moment. Every time some straight romance arcs opens, I would feel the pain. I recall, when played Mass Effect, I was playing nice guy, and in the end EVERY female char was wanting to date me, even though I never gave them anything but friendliness. It was so depressing.

It breaks me in two to cancel the order. But I could not do otherwise. I would feel like cheating myself. It is so painful. :((

Honestly, I can't see why they're including romance arcs into the game at all. It's a MMO after all, who wants to start a romance with a pre-programmed computer sprite instead of a real per-

Nevermind, I forgot the times in which we live.

But seriously, folks, change can't always happen overnight. Soon enough, being homosexual will be as (pardon the word) insignificant as being heterosexual. Something not worth mentioning because, well, who cares? TV and film characters will have same sex spouses and it won't be provocative. Video games will have romance arcs where the only controversial object of your romance will be a space ship or a car.

Then, maybe, someday in the future, we will see an Oriental (yeah I said Oriental, it's what me, my mother and my grandmother (GRHS) call ourselves. It's what a lot of Orientals call ourselves.) playing the lead in a TV show or film who isn't a martial artist or mathematician and he will be as accepted as a white or black man.

What? Oh come on, a guy can dream, can't he?