Unpleasantness in Chat

It always surprises me when people in the GLBTQ community--people who know what it feels like to be excluded--display prejudice and intolerance toward other groups. Last night, I witnessed and became part of an unpleasant exchange in the Fleet chat channel that left me with my heart pounding in my chest, feeling much like I felt after an incident of real life gay bashing. I wanted to share my thoughts on this, not to revel in the victim role, but because I think we can do better.

The incident I'm talking about may sound silly to some of you. It started with a discussion of "gingers"--people with fair skin and red hair. Many people were expressing appreciation for them, but one individual started spewing an incessant stream of vitriol toward gingers and disrespect toward those who like them. The person later claimed to be "obviously" joking, but the tone and repetition of the unpleasant comments did not come across as funny. (This was in the fleet text chat channel, and no smileys were used.) I don't consider myself overly sensitive, but like I said, the comments affected me on a physical level. I expressed my concerns, and tried to remove myself from the situation by closing the chat window, but another player was PMing me asking for help, so I kept seeing the comments about how I was being "overly sensitive" and couldn't take a joke.

Yes, I have red hair. Growing up, I was teased with such taunts as, "I'd rather be dead than red in the head," just because I was different. Even if you don't have red hair, I'm guessing most people in this fleet know what it's like to be excluded because of being different. That's exactly why I hold GLBTQ people to a higher standard in such situations. We've been there. We know what it's like. We're the last people who should exclude others from our groups.

Previously, I have also seen fleet members express other prejudices that made me uncomfortable. I've seen some of our straight-ally members confronted about why they're in a gay fleet. And I've heard some gender-related prejudice on fleet channels, mostly from men who sometimes forget that Stonewall is not a gay-men-only club.

Anyway, the purpose of this post is twofold. First I would like to thank those of you who spoke up in my defense last night. And second, I would like to ask us all to be vigilant about our own prejudices.

Just as straight people enjoy a position of privilege, where many of them never have to think about what it's like to be discriminated against on the basis of who they love, each of us is in a position of privilege in one way or another. Some of us have never been discriminated against because of the color of our skin. Some of us don't know what it's like to be paid less than our colleagues because of our gender. But most of us know what it feels like to be attacked with gay epithets.

I encourage all of us (hey, I know I have my own prejudices, too) to work on our empathy, and try to imagine what it's like in the other person's shoes. We all have experience being on the receiving end of prejudice. Use that experience to inform your own actions and words toward other groups.

If you feel like expressing that you, personally, don't find gingers attractive, or don't think straight allies should be in the fleet, try replacing "ginger" or "straight" with a more obviously unacceptable prejudice, like "black" or "lesbian" and see how your words sound. You might be surprised at how ugly your "joke" sounds to someone else.

I'm really sorry to hear that you have had this experience while in the fleet and I can only feel apologetic about the situation even if I wasn't involved.

I try to hold myself to a high standard when dealing with others with different colours, genders, beliefs, and principles but it can be dammed hard when faced with those who can't help themselves. Unfortunately, we are all human and we all have our own prejudice towards others. There have been a few times when I've had to bite my tongue when reading people talk about religion being the source of all evil etc etc.

As a British citizen I have a very dry wit and can be often seen playing it very close to the line in my way of talking to others and being humourous. I sincerely hope this is never taken as serious and can be taken in the spirit it is meant: a very unfunny man giggling to himself behind a PC about being inappropriate. :blush:

Finally, I just wanted to remind you that there are many people in the fleet who have their own high standards of behaviour who have made me almost cry with how lovely they've been to me via Vent or chat in-game and who have never judged me on what I had to say and offered help with real life situations and in-game.

I concur. It's one thing if it's a laugh with your friends, but doing it in a public form is beyond a joke and quite frankly starting to piss me off.

Everyone should be tolerant especially in this community and if their not well I guess they haven't faced much adversity or understand the issues the community has faced as a whole.

There is a meme in the gay community that never ceases to shock me: the oppressed becomes the oppressor.

We are all fellow human beings. None of is better or worse than anyone else.

Firstly. Gingers are ace!!!!!!

Secondly, being ni a gay dominated fleet being straight is often viewed by some as being the gay one pretending to be straight in a gay community (especialy if like me you can actualy bew involved in what would only be clased as gay banter about encounters and other subjects relating to anatomy)

End of the day we all have our isms, racism, genderism, ageism. Me im the fiorst to admit im antism which is I get very low tolerance fir those that are meen to others, be it race, sex age creed or religion or sexual preference., I beleive we all have our bad sidfes, lets just have our diferences and try to keep the nsty inside of us to us and not to everyone else.

I respect that we all have fredom of speech and we are all able to speek our minds., We just have to check ourselves before we say things that may be percived by others as harful, meen and just outright nasty.

Thanks for posting this Propecius. I must admit, my sence of humour sometimes leads me to embarrass my close friends in public, and expects the same to be done to me. I think it's very important to be reminded though that if everyone is not "in" on the joke, it can misfire badly and hurt people. My motto is... know your audience. A joke is only funny if everyone is laughing.

I was going to click the thank you button until I read:

Quote by Propecius

try replacing "ginger" or "straight" with a more obviously unacceptable prejudice, like "black" or "lesbian" and see how your words sound. You might be surprised at how ugly your "joke" sounds to someone else.

What?

Since when is "black" an unacceptable prejudicial word?

He was referring to using it in place of another minority in a prejudicial statement, not saying that black is prejudicial.

For example, some may not hesitate at saying "straight people don't belong in this fleet", but would be much more less likely to say that "black people don't belong in this fleet."

Just for the record, no matter your sexual orientation or race, you are welcome in this fleet.

Quote by NicholasJohn16

He was referring to using it in place of another minority in a prejudicial statement, not saying that black is prejudicial.

For example, some may not hesitate at saying "straight people don't belong in this fleet", but would be much more less likely to say that "black people don't belong in this fleet."

Just for the record, no matter your sexual orientation or race, you are welcome in this fleet.

Ah! Thank you for helping me understand that, Nicholas. ^.^

Wow. It is really unfortunate that this happened. While I wasn't present for the discussion, it seems more than obvious that it affected the poster. For what it's worth, I have always held myself to a higher expectation than those around me simply because I can easily control what I project but not what others perceive. You can control projection but only influence others' perceptions of you. Something I have to keep in mind a lot due to my job. As a manager, the biggest part of my job is negotiation and conflict resolution. You would be surprised at some of the things that come up but if you handle them correctly, everybody wins and comes out for the better.

There is another thing that I never really understood until I became an adult--I guess you could say when I turned maybe 25 since I was a late bloomer!! I used to think that people said they were sorry because they were saying they were wrong. That can lead to a lot of problems since it is easy to find someone so stubborn that they will never apologize if they have to admit they were wrong. Instead, I came to understand that apologizing to someone simply because you hurt his or her feelings was the right thing to do. It reopens the door that got closed and starts a dialog that otherwise may never happen.

Bashers or those with poor social skills often times find themselves in Yahoo chats where they gang up on people or prey on others for a good time. This fleet is outstanding in its support and its ability to embrace all its members. We have members from all across the world, multiple continents, countries, time zones, etc. All too often, people claim that the world is being too sensitive. That may be true, but when someone goes out of his or her way to slight another person, therein lies the issue.

To the original poster, I'm sorry you had to go through all that. I'm sure everyone in this fleet has been picked on or bullied at least once. I'm proud to be a part of this fleet and if there was an emoticon in the boardcode for a hug, I'd enter it here. >:D

I do think it is important to keep in mind that something that may come across as obviously joking when spoken may not come across as that when in written form. Hence my use of emoticons whenever I am making a particularly dry joke. Just to be sure that all parties involved know it is a joke.

I wont say I'm surprised about this, the fleet chat can get heated things meant as a joke can quickly spin out of control.
A few things have been spinning in my mind in the hour our so since I've read this, the first was Sticks and stones May break my bones But words will never hurt me. anyone that was ever called names as a kid more then likely was told this, but honestly its not true, words do hurt and they have power. The second was the Buddhist concept of right speech. The best explanation I found about right speech was http://www.esolibris.com/articles/buddhism/buddhism_speech.php basically Right speech, explained in negative terms, means avoiding four types of harmful speech: lies (words spoken with the intent of misrepresenting the truth); divisive speech (spoken with the intent of creating rifts between people); harsh speech (spoken with the intent of hurting another person's feelings); and idle chatter (spoken with no purposeful intent at all) I had been trying to think of how to reply to this thread. In my research I found this http://www.quotelady.com/writings/power-of-words.html. In the end we need to honer each other, our selves, and our words.

South Park has made "ginger"-bashing a punchline to several of their episodes. For the record I'm not saying it's right/wrong or tasteful. I have a feeling the "offender" was probably referencing that: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e11-ginger-kids

Instead of writing my own lengthy response, I'll let Don Henley (Eagles) sing it for me:

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What are you saying Colivia? I admit my interpretations of things are not always spot on, so before I respond I would like to know.

Well you have a good point Colivia and normally I would agree, get over it as that's my general stance, however I totally sympathise with this thread.

The thing is about stuff like South Park is well you know it takes the piss out of everything and the bases for it's jokes are normally the more generalised stereotypical view of the world or that subject, not to mention the fact you can turn it off if you don't want to watch it.... you can't do that with people. I really hope that doesn't happen... cause I think they would make an off switch for me.... o_0

I think the point is sometimes things are said that are more directed towards individuals or being said to piss someone off/wind them up whatever you want to call it. Sometimes the subject hits close to home. Quite frankly if you are taking the piss out of someone you don't know, someone else that is watching and is in the same boat will actually take "said" topic offensively. To be honest the Ginger thing is kinda irritating especially if you were bullied when you were younger because of it. Then again that's just an example of a variety of topics and in a Fleet this size it's likely there will be disagreements on a lot of subjects.

Any way, I think what I'm trying to say is no matter what subject there is always going to be adversity, but would people take a bit of better consideration into what they say? As there is stating your opinion and then there's just being an ass. Delicately put? I hope so :)

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So if some one says to someone your a puff, fag and such and harrases them about it and pushes them, they should "get over it"? I think not Id either give em something back or break their nose, even it it wasnt me they were refering to. Not everyone is up for breaking a nose of able to feel powerful to fight back, some of us cant just get over it as for years people have sffered under the banner of piss taking and sometimes nough becomes enough. I was in a channel last night when a conversation on language as in englisg etc came up. It bewgan as a joke and a bit of joking was going round about proper grammer but it soon became very racist by the comments that were being made. It got to the point that I ende up loosing my cool after a few times of trying to change the subject as it was upseting several people in trhe channel and the poeple talking just didnt see it until it was thrust in their face and soon it all stopped. My point being ios sometimes a joke can quickly change it tone and become harrasment, rasism, sexist, genederism etc. Anyhow my rant is lost in all this. Not everyone after all the tortures they have endured can get over it and we always have to be mindful of it.

That fact that it matters enough ti a member of our fleet that they would post about it in the forums, means that it should matter to all of us. Stonewall Fleet is supposed to be a family that means we support one another, that where there to listen when someone is upset were here make it better if we can, and that above all we treat others with kindness and respect. The bottom line is if someone says that that are offended or that something is not funny, it is not and the conversation should end. Really as they say on the Disney channel if you wouldn't say it in person don't say it online.

First, let me just say thanks to all who weighed in on this thread. I was away from this site for a few days, and caught off guard by the outpouring of thoughts and opinions. Excellent discussion! I learned some things. What a great reminder of why I love this fleet!

And for those who have spoken out on "Ginger Pride" (I'm so stealing that) and said pro-ginger things, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. But for me it's not a ginger issue, not a gay or straight issue, but a respect issue. When someone singles out a group of people and treats them badly, simply because they are different in some way, it diminishes us all.

One thing I absolutely love about this fleet is how inclusive it is. While the demographics may change over time as people fade in and out of the game, the spirit of the fleet remains remarkably constant (thanks in no small part to Nick and the officers). I suppose that's why I was so taken aback by what happened in fleet chat that night. But I know that was an aberration. The fleet I see in this thread is the fleet I signed up for: supportive, inclusive, thoughtful, and just generally awesome!

So thank you, one and all--even those who don't agree with me or think I may have overreacted. Thank you for contributing to this discussion. Thank you for making me feel at home again. And thank you, officers and fleetmates alike, for creating a safe place for us to explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, and occasionally massacre the hell out of each other in PvP.