Cryptic, Neverwinter, and Forge

Today, Cryptic & Atari announced their new "co-op RPG" that is going to hit at the end of 2011. It's called Neverwinter and it's based in the Dungeons & Dragons universe. You can read Destructoid's article on the reveal here. The article also contains a link to the game's website.

While it's been known for a while that Cryptic had another game in the works (though I'm surprised it's not another full-blown MMO), there was one sentence in particular in the article that caught my notice:

"Players will also be able to create their own quests and stories using a new content generation system that has been given the working title of Forge."

Yeah. That 'Forge' system is the user-generated content toolset that Cryptic has been promising is coming to STO within the next year. We are totally the fucking testing ground and beta for something being advertised as a feature for another game. :P

Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad that it's coming and that this is further evidence that Cryptic is putting significant financial resources and development behind it. However, because Cryptic is hyping it as a component of another game, I guess I'm also doing a little eye-rolling and saying "Oh, Cryptic" with a smirk.

lol, this isn't the first time.

Shortly after STO was launched, CoX got dual wielded pistols.
I'm gonna bet shortly after we get Fleet Starbases, CO will get Supergroup HQs.

I know there are more examples, but I can't think of any right now, lol, :P.

They're sharing most of their development with all of their MMOs. I think it's kinda of shotty that STO is being grown into a direction of "best fits all."

Wow.. That's slightly disappointing. Like Nick said, it's not like it isn't unheard of but somehow this seems like we're getting a second-hand system made for a new game rather than the brand new content designed for Star Trek Online.

Yes, disappointing.

Interesting, but I don't see it as a zero-sum game here. There's no reason user-generated content can't succeed in both games, is there? Just because it's advertised as a feature of the forthcoming game doesn't mean it will be any less fun in STO, does it?

I think creating missions in STO could be a blast! I only tried CoH's content creation stuff 2 or 3 times, and it didn't really hold my attention. But having fans write missions in the Star Trek universe? With all the Trek expertise (Trekspertise?) out there? I'll bet some good stuff comes out of this.

I do wonder if, in the long run, user content will be used for the weekly missions. And why not, if the missions are of high quality?

There is no reason why it can't work in both games and I'm not writing it off. It's just disappointing that once again something isn't being designed for Star Trek Online.

The problem is when creating content to be "Multi-Game Friendly" is that it ends up restricting the games so that none of them break. If you create something purely for one purpose then as long as it works once, fantastic.

I mean look at the engine itself. It wasn't made for Star Trek Online and I'm sick of hearing about how we don't have full 3D space combat/movement.

Will we really be surprised if they release this new "system" and we don't have all the fancy "story-making-super-episode-style" creation tools we expect?

I'm on the fence about this, to be honest. If this truly is a multi-game feature, that means it will probably very modular in nature. Done right, this could be exceptionally powerful. Also, since Cryptic is applying to games which probably have the same engine (CO and STO share a lot already, so I imagine Neverwinter will as well), there may not be that many limitations.

From what I understand of the way STO and Cryptic's other games work (which is minimal), it would seem that Forge needs to be a very general tool that is then customized with the assets of a game. For example, its code would use objects like 'environment instance', 'character model', and 'enemy type', which would hold true across all of Cryptic's games. Those would then be fit to a specific game by giving it access to the game-appropriate assets. Whereas Forge in Neverwinter would have access to an ogre for a possible enemy type, STO would have Klingons and Borg.

If you've played both CO and STO, you get a sense for just how similar they are under the hood. Again, provided Cryptic doesn't fuck it up (which is a BIG if), it could work really well. It's just that, like everything with Cryptic, I become suspicious when they try being too ambitious, as their execution usually ends up falling flat.

I'm actually hoping this is a good thing...

I figure the more games that use Forge, the more development time and resources it'll get. Plus, the broader selection of circumstances it's required to be capable of handling, the more options and customisability it should be able to offer. Hopefully, anyway.

PjhN wrote:

I'm actually hoping this is a good thing...

Yay, another person with some hope!

I've always been extremely skeptical and cynical at heart, but I’m also always optimistic by dint of always being very cynical about how much of a cynic I am... So while things often do turn out to be disappointing, the way I see it is that that's only because really I'm always optimistic, and although I'd expected it to be disappointing that would only have been because I'm such a skeptical and cynical person, and I’d been optimistic that I’d be wrong and it might not disappoint after all. Either way it's very rare I'm surprised. :P

I like you, even if that last post gave me a headache. :-)

I don't mean this observation to be directed at anyone in particular, but sometimes it seems we're looking so hard for problems that we can't just enjoy things for what they are. I don't know if it comes from being gay in a society that often treats us as second class citizens (or worse), if we're just dealing with abandonment issues, or if it's part of a larger zeitgeist.

We know some developers have left Cryptic. We have been told that is normal after the successful release of a product, and that makes sense. But still there seems to be a feeling of insecurity, like this game we're investing our time into will be yanked out from under us, or abandoned somehow. So when word comes out that a user-content system we thought was ours is also going to be used in another game, suddenly it becomes a sign of the Apocalypse?

Truth is: someday the last STO server will be shut down, and those of us who sprung for the lifetime membership will just have to accept that it was for the lifetime of the game, not the lifetime of the user. Realistically, that's not going to happen for many years to come.

In the meantime, the bigger danger is that Cryptic will not devote what we consider "appropriate" resources to keeping our game playable and enjoyable. To counter this threat, I choose to vote with my dollars (or in this case my Cryptic Points), and let them know that I like this game, and I want it to continue to get better.

I enjoy the game and I like the way it's headed.

The general dissatisfaction you hear is our disappointed with the developer, Cryptic. A lot of people are tired of the bugs, half developed content, and lack of exciting features.

A lot of the problems with STO boils down to the fact that it was made with a game engined designed with another game in mind and it was rushed out of development to make a quick buck.

I'm all with you on hope. The game has a lot of great features, space combat, bridge officer crafting, diplomacy, but there's definitely room to grow. The last Ask Cryptic was the best I've read in a long time and I think the changes in leadership will lead STO down a completely different path than where it was going.

Yeah, I completely echo what Nick said. I definitely hope Forge turns out well. It's more that my hope is tempered by previous experience with Cryptic, and this whole "Forge is actually being built for other stuff at the same time" just feels like another episode of "That's So Cryptic!".

Like everyone else, I definitely hope and want these user-generated content tools to work and be awesome. I mean, you guys see how much I love writing stories here on the forums. If this game gave me powerful and flexible tools to create missions, I would be soooooooooooooo happy. Hell, I'd probably be dumping my own Weekly Content on you guys. :D

I hear the whole "annoyed at all the bugs argument", and agree to an extent. But at the same time I'm conscious of how much harder it must be to make an MMO than a single player game, and considering the number of those I've bought that have turned out to be more bug-ridden than the entomology department of the British Natural History Museum, I honestly don't think STO's been doing so badly.

Not ideally, of course, but on the whole it's still playable. Compared to The Saboteur's release, for instance, where it turned out to be incompatible with almost the entire ATI GFX card range. :blink:

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p.s.

chemkarate wrote:

Hell, I'd probably be dumping my own Weekly Content on you guys.

Filthy boy. :P

PjhN wrote:

chemkarate wrote:

Hell, I'd probably be dumping my own Weekly Content on you guys.

Filthy boy. :P

LOL.

And also: Eyew!

:)

PjhN wrote:
chemkarate wrote:

Hell, I'd probably be dumping my own Weekly Content on you guys.

Filthy boy. :P

lol! Yeah, that was pretty nasty of me. ;)

PjhN wrote:

I hear the whole "annoyed at all the bugs argument", and agree to an extent. But at the same time I'm conscious of how much harder it must be to make an MMO than a single player game, and considering the number of those I've bought that have turned out to be more bug-ridden than the entomology department of the British Natural History Museum, I honestly don't think STO's been doing so badly.

That's certainly true with regard to comparing it to single-player games and it is not the worst. However, I am comparing it to a number of other big-budget MMOs I've played. Right now, the rate at which serious bugs and other issues are being remedied is much slower than games like World of Warcraft. Right now, STO is getting dangerously close to the trajectory that has nearly killed Champions Online, where bugs continue to persist and build up over time, and their continued existence cannot be excused because new compelling content is also largely absent.

I really hope that this user-generated content goes a long way to fixing that, and I like that the STO team has announced their changing their priorities to polish the game as it exists. However, I've also heard these same promises before from them, so I guess I'm saying I'll believe it when I see it, and the recent announcement that Forge is multi-game only makes me think more that this is more of the same from Cryptic instead of a new direction.

Be warned, this may be a little Nerd Rage-y...

I'm glad so many of you are eagerly waiting for this. IMO, it won't do much. At least not for me. Right now, no matter how you spin it, the game is fail. Months and months I gave it time, gave it a chance to prove to me it was a good game. And still, months later, it feels like I'm playing some alpha mmo test game. Once I had my first RA I felt like canceling. its so linear of a game, the replay value, for me, is ZERO. I'm trying my engineer who's captain now, but I just don't get any enjoyment from it anymore.
I now log into my VA to do my daily (the only thing to do) and my first BTran is bugged. I can't handle it. The game frustrates me more then I get any enjoyment from it anymore. I play games with flat monthly fees because I can't really invest into entertainment. Single guy, single paycheck. The C-Store kills me. All this great content that would enrich the game in general, but it must be bought, and not cheaply.
I enjoy this guild, but even that's not enough to keep me motivated, as there isn't anything to do WITH the fleet. Grouping is still broken. I don't pvp. Fleet actions are.... ugh... Diplomacy is a neat idea, but its JUST as linear and boring. Nothing fresh, nothing captivatingf.
Sadly I haven't played in about a week. I'm pretty convinced this game is not going in the direction I would like it to. I honestly don't think I'm gonna be playing much longer. I'm a huge trekkie, and really looked forward to this. I guess I'm not "casual" enough to enjoy this game. Whatever.
Sorry if that was whiney, but I'm sure not too many are going to whole heartedly disagree. If you do, well you probably haven't played a good, polished, content filled MMO before.

I

Propecius wrote:

I don't mean this observation to be directed at anyone in particular, but sometimes it seems we're looking so hard for problems that we can't just enjoy things for what they are. I don't know if it comes from being gay in a society that often treats us as second class citizens (or worse), if we're just dealing with abandonment issues, or if it's part of a larger zeitgeist.

There's something about that paragraph that I really don't like. I'm far too tired to post the reply required to make my point clear but I will say this.

Everyone who bought Star Trek Online, Subscription payers and Life-timers, certainly didn't go into the game "looking so hard for problems". We bought Star Trek Online to have fun, to take part in the Star Trek Universe we all love. The problems that we found aren't something we've looked for, they're been thrown at us left, right and center. Take a look at the official forums. People outside of the game have looked upon them as "flame-fests". Just a bunch of people moaning for the hell of it. I've actually being really impressed with the official forums because the problems people talk about over there aren't little things there massive problems with the game. And there's a lot of long, well written and absolutely correct posts that go overlooked.

I honestly believe the human spirit goes a long way in the world. We can overlook a lot of stuff and sometimes we put up with things we simply shouldn't put up with so we can at least get a "taste" of what we want. We put up with things that simply aren't good enough.

Is it really too much to ask that they dedicate time to a major feature just for Star Trek Online? To improve Star Trek Online and not their next cash-cow? If the answer is yes then that proves my point that we as humans put up with unsatisfactory stuff far too often.

I also didn't appreciate the gay society remark.

I agree halish. i was looking for all the good suff when i first bought this game. And the first two weeks were good. After RA thoughi realised how small and limited this game was. One zone in WoW feels bigger then the whole STO universe :-/
I don't think we're being picky "cuz we're gay". I think we're being picky because the game is NOT delivering. Like halish said, check out official forums. Its nothing different. This just may end up being an MMO flop. I'm sorry for the lifers :(
I'm kinda tired of people defending this game. Honestly take a looong look at it. Now ifyou've played any other MMO, think back to your first experiences with that. Compare. STO was fail outta the box. Reaching max level in 2.5 weeks of regular game play.... that's not how they are supposed to work, unless all the good stuffs at the end game... but that's not even the case in STO. UGH, just writing about it frustrates me...

I agree with Halish and Jeremy, although I'm still "hopeful" but even that sentiment is beginning to wane. I've been accused of "bellyaching" and being "negative" toward Cryptic so these last few days I've only made my discontent known privately.

Like everyone else I was eager to purchase this game and once I did canceled my subscription to World of Warcraft, which I had played uninterrupted since 2005. Then I got to RA 5 and regretted that decision. But then Season 2 was announced and soon after it went live on Holodeck. I was exited about STO again. Then the bugs came...(not going into specifics but if you're curious just read my replies to other posts...lol). Not implying other MMOs don't have bugs, they do, World of Warcraft always has issues after a major patch and the game is pretty much unplayable for a day or two...but never for consecutive weeks...the same is true of Perfect World International, a free-to-play MMO I play once in a while, where updates and patches run smoothly.

I believe many (myself included) are experiencing what I call the "bad bf" syndrome with Cryptic. He apologizes when he hurts you, says he loves you and the sex is great. However, he steals your money (C-Store?), uses some of that money to buy you flowers and rather than looking for work cruises for hookups. You know he's bad for you but you love him...perhaps many of us, after being fed so much hype during STO's development, want to hang on to that constructed illusion and Cryptic feeds into this.

Probably not the best analogy but wanted to express myself without seeming to just repeat what others have said/written :P

For now, I'll log on if I have nothing better to do, solo Btran and maybe run the daily fleet action (so long as it is not Big Dig :angry: ). Lately, I've just been socializing with a few fleeties and at the moment believe that's justification enough to continue paying my monthly subscription. Yet I'm confident that if Cryptic doesn't make significant progress with STO soon I'll reconsider.

Halish wrote:

There's something about that paragraph that I really don't like. I'm far too tired to post the reply required to make my point clear but I will say this.

You know what? I get what you're saying. I didn't realize that I would come across the way I did, and I apologize to those of you whom I rubbed the wrong way.

I didn't mean to imply that our being gay is the reason many of us are unhappy with the game, and I didn't mean to dismiss the valid concerns people have over Cryptic's slow response to existing bugs. I guess the point I really wanted to make (but got diverted by my interest in how our experience of life as glbtq people is different from those who have the luxury of never thinking about such things) was that many people here seem to be convinced of the worst regarding this new game stealing resources from STO. We don't know yet if that will happen.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of a doubt. For now. And if you guys are right, and Cryptic abandons us, I'll be right next to you with my cleverly worded sign--and possibly a flaming torch--as we march on their headquarters. (Well, it makes for a fun image anyway.)