"those kind of gays"

Luriel LoonShy

LoonShy

"those kind of gays"

December 07 2014
Apologies if this is a controversial topic, but this is bothering me a bit.

Am I so rare in the gay world for thinking that it is not acceptable to be gay and still criticize other gay people for being a sort of person you don't like?
I mean, there's a difference between saying you find them annoying for being some way, and broadly saying that those kinds of gays are not good for the gay rights movement, likable, beneficial, sane or otherwise welcome.

I mean, it has gotten to where due to my own experience, I am more afraid of attack from other gay guys than I am non-gay people, simply because I am not "masculine" or "straight acting" enough, or that I want some emotional connection, not simply a handy flesh based sexual toy to use or be.


What happened to the idea of it being an accepting community because we aren't yet equal? why have we turned on each other in an effort to present "the best" to people at all times, it's like gays are more ashamed of other gays than they are of each other or even those that discriminate against people.
9 people liked this
Scott Aetherarchon

Frozenlily

"those kind of gays"

December 07 2014
Hey :) there is a few guys I know that have been putting hate on others that are not the "straightest gay" in my community and some of this hate is focused at me for my voice as well as the way I act. The others are More "feminine" than me and are bullied more in my area because one wears a purse and wears girls clothes. One has changed his name and started wearing things of the opposite sex and even goes to the girls washroom only when he has girls with him. The three of us are unique members of our gay global community for not being the "manly" type but for being us.

The people that make the notion to be narrow minded in their comments are just equally as bad as our straight brothers and sisters that don't approve of our life style. They are the ones that provoke negative looks and words our way and group us all under negative umbrellas because of these few guys that think we are too" girly", we don't like the same stuff as them, we arent as "masculine", or even "that guy is just too gay..." "I hope I'm not that gay" (those words I've heard from some members of PEI's community.

What matters is that we know we are comfortable in the way we are (some of us... I'm still learning to be with my voice) and that is what drives our gay pride. Every community, business, country or anything will have people that want to voice their opinions even if they will hurt their own sisters and brothers. what you need to do is be brave and be strong. You need to stand up for what you believe in and never give in to any hate. The gay rights movements across the world did not get to where they are today by having our own people tell certain people they aren't "right(?)" for the movement. They got this way by overcoming all boundaries in their way.

Just some late night thoughts on this. It may be a bunch of mumbo jumbo lol but I believe that everyone who looks up at the men and women who part of this community and anyone who feels like they are part of it, are part of it :) there is a place for everyone and that is why Diversity, Rainbows and Pride all resonate with the LGBT comunities.

Ps Haters are always going to hate and if you give in and show them it hurts or bothers you, me or anyone it just fuels their fires to keep doing. So always keep your chin up and rise above the haters from within and out :D
5 people liked this
Romario

Romario

"those kind of gays"

December 07 2014
I think that, while we are still a community, we often don't realize the journey we take as individuals, which isn't as homogeneous as people might want to believe. I remember in my day and my surroundings, my version of "not that kind of gay" meant that I wasn't that guy that was fondling children, or that guy that accosted any good looking straight twink in a bar and paid him twenty bucks for a blowjob. Of course, this was in surroundings where you knew of people going to parks and beating up the gays, because they then would come to school or around the neighborhood and brag about it. It was only after I started maturing on the subject and taking it seriously as something that just was, that I knew the difference between a pedophile and a gay man, or the acts of desperation all humans are subject to at one point or another.

When I finally came out and started searching for my truth, I went through so many phases it was ridiculous. Bouncing from straight acting to flamboyant, to politically active to hedonistically slutting it up. I picked and chose alot, acquired and let go in so many forms. But I most often felt like an outsider among outsiders because I would see how the factions within our community shaded each other, and basically lived out the same dynamic that is prevalent when we talk of gay/straight relations. Though, in an most ethnic households like my own, acting straight or not also determined how hard you would have it. It meant the difference between walking unharmed or getting beat up and bullied. I think when some young gay boys watch all that and then are confronted with being gay in this environment, it screws with your mind.

In the black community there is something we like to call Uncle Tom syndrome which, int he context of racial relations, usually is applied to someone who 'whitens' themselves up in order to appease the ruling white class. It's a another topic entirely, but I do see strands of that when we deal with each other.

Acting straight or acting gay, people who are uncomfortable with themselves usually reach out and influence their surroundings to mask their own insecurities about life and their role in it, rearranging it to fit their narrow view of what their world should be, or what it shouldn't.

Even in our world, among our kind, we'll always have to deal with people who haven't experienced our lives as we have. Being gay doesn't stop certain individuals from being narrow minded pricks.

I'm always laughing when people call other people bottoms, for instance, to their face even. Like the old argument that you're not really gay if you are the poker instead of the pokee. Really? But then I realize that most of the people who use this terminology are bottoms. Tops naturally don't mind a bottom for some odd reason.

I prefer people acting naturally: I propose this could be thing. Naturally Acting Gays. Gays who can at times act one way or the other way without having an existential crisis and making the rest of the community suffer for it....cuz those bitches are tired.


Edit: lol N.A.G. I just noticed that.
4 people liked this
Edited December 07 2014 by Romario
Liam

williamjaneway

"those kind of gays"

December 07 2014
You can't please all of the people all of the time, only some of the people some of the time.

It is human nature to be unique and an individual and then still critique others when they don't conform to an expected standard.

The difference is how you let that affect you, with regards to if it is directed towards you specifically or if it is directed towards others
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Romario

Romario

"those kind of gays"

December 07 2014
Quote by Baothezar
I don't need no man.

I don't seek approval from anyone. Not even myself. especially myself, I set waayyy to high expectations.

And I sure as hell don't care what douche bags whom I never interact with think about me. I've ran into my fair share of that bull shit. You're not white, youre too short, youre Asian, youre blah blah blah. The only people I care about are the people close to me. If my car broke down in another state I can think of at least 5 people who would drop what they're doing and come pick me up. The bitches who act like they're better then everyone else can go fuck themselves.



riiiight!?


Heller n Good Mernting!
Sej @Ereiid

Ereiid

"those kind of gays"

December 08 2014
So, this book had been recommended to me awhile back: The Velvet Rage



Now, full disclosure - the author is a clinical psychologist, but I don't want anyone to confuse his ideas with hard scientific fact. But even anecdote and example can be illuminating.

His basic gist is that gay men are so used to being belittled at an early age, as we grow older, we find ourselves often times overcompensating, seeking approval and validation through certain archetypal paradigms.

Take for example certain avenues in which gay men are often broadly reputed, even among ourselves and friendly allies, to excel at:
  • living fabulously - we're supposed to have fantastic homes, stylish and comfortable
  • living hotly - so this is the gym bunny archetype, but can be extended to the extra effort we put into clothes, beauty, hair, and everything else shallow


Now extrapolate this to everything - workplace, personal lives, our political lives. And the growing realization is that we're expected to somehow live these superhuman exceptional lives.

Which sounds like it's not a bad way to be, kind of an aspirational ideal, right?

So Downs goes on to describe the downside of all this living fabulously. Gay men experience statistically known higher rates of depressive disorders, drug abuse, and so on.

It should be said that the author specifies this cloud of phenomena and behaviors are specific for gay men; other folks in the LGBT umbrella have plenty of their own challenges that just don't map over. And he's not very forthcoming about Deepak Chopra-style means of coping with all these stressors in a healthy manner.

Agree with it, disagree with it - the point is to strike up a conversation about ourselves in a brutally honest fashion.
4 people liked this
Edited December 08 2014 by Ereiid
Luriel LoonShy

LoonShy

"those kind of gays"

December 08 2014
Quote by Ereiid
So, this book had been recommended to me awhile back: The Velvet Rage



Now, full disclosure - the author is a clinical psychologist, but I don't want anyone to confuse his ideas with hard scientific fact. But even anecdote and example can be illuminating.

His basic gist is that gay men are so used to being belittled at an early age, as we grow older, we find ourselves often times overcompensating, seeking approval and validation through certain archetypal paradigms.

Take for example certain avenues in which gay men are often broadly reputed, even among ourselves and friendly allies, to excel at:
  • living fabulously - we're supposed to have fantastic homes, stylish and comfortable
  • living hotly - so this is the gym bunny archetype, but can be extended to the extra effort we put into clothes, beauty, hair, and everything else shallow


Now extrapolate this to everything - workplace, personal lives, our political lives. And the growing realization is that we're expected to somehow live these superhuman exceptional lives.

Which sounds like it's not a bad way to be, kind of an aspirational ideal, right?

So Downs goes on to describe the downside of all this living fabulously. Gay men experience statistically known higher rates of depressive disorders, drug abuse, and so on.

It should be said that the author specifies this cloud of phenomena and behaviors are specific for gay men; other folks in the LGBT umbrella have plenty of their own challenges that just don't map over. And he's not very forthcoming about Deepak Chopra-style means of coping with all these stressors in a healthy manner.

Agree with it, disagree with it - the point is to strike up a conversation about ourselves in a brutally honest fashion.



yeah, but it doesn't help us when within our own kind, we get slammed for not being as superhumanly perfect as we can, it's hard to do it all alone, especially when those that you attempt to trust and rely on, tend to abandon you with at best a snide or sarcastic remark, or sometimes simply stop talking to you when it gets tougher.


I might be a cynic, but I still believe things can be improved if people try, most of the time it seems like other gay people are apathetic ("it is how it is, just go with it.") or nihilistic ("there's no point in coming out, it only serves to alienate you and make you a target. " "Protesting oppression gets you shot" Well we are subhuman scum anyway, so, why does it matter?") beyond me.


it's a wonder to me how those people don't actually turn suicidal.
Edited December 08 2014 by LoonShy
Bren

Bren

"those kind of gays"

December 08 2014
Where it concerns more feminine or less masculine gay men, I think a huge part of the problem is that society is pervasively misogynistic. It's trickled down from the heterosexual patriarchy into the gay community. We've adopted a lot of societal preconceptions and enforced them on ourselves, which only leads to more oppression... this time not by others, but by ourselves.

Fighting for acceptance doesn't stop once we've achieved equal civil rights. There are centuries worth of cultural preconceptions and conditioning that need to be addressed, and the first way to do that is to stand up for yourself by not allowing anyone (especially within the LGBT community) to tell you who you may or may not be. Equality is not just for the elite few who can blend into "mainstream" society, it's for every person.
5 people liked this
Edited December 08 2014 by Bren
Trahelion

Trahelion

"those kind of gays"

December 09 2014
I think it is human nature to want to band together, forming "cliques", and then asserting dominance over other groups. Sort of a primal survival instinct.

I'm in no way defending it, as we're a few good thousand years from needing things like tribes and clans. In fact, I'm rather irked by any "Us vs. Them" kind of thinking.

Anyways, that's my thinking on the subject. I even distribute my disdain across ALL of humanity. :P
5 people liked this
Sej @Ereiid

Ereiid

"those kind of gays"

December 10 2014
Quote by Tlek
yeah, but it doesn't help us when within our own kind, we get slammed for not being as superhumanly perfect as we can, it's hard to do it all alone, especially when those that you attempt to trust and rely on, tend to abandon you with at best a snide or sarcastic remark, or sometimes simply stop talking to you when it gets tougher.


I think the undergirding point should be that gay, straight, mean girl, whatever - that sort of bullying more often than not originates from a source of insecurity. Now, the difference being that it's not an excuse, or condoning behavior.

Choosing how to channel those experiences to inform your (not yours specifically, the general, royal "yours") adult life is the very point. And for all the bitchy queens, I think everyone here can recognize people in their own lives that have found ways to turn that pain and pressure into empathy, gratitude, a sense of justice, and even live fabulous while doing it.
5 people liked this
Xian Sugiyama

Seven_of_Fine

"those kind of gays"

January 18 2015
A lot of what I see is also some form of redirected misogyny. Feminine qualities in a homosexual man is seen as somehow shameful. The flamboyant lisp-ing queen with a limp wrist who goes ," GURRRL..." quite frequently and owns an extensive collection of rainbow accessories, amongst personal traits.

While I think this stereotype is often overused, I think that to hate a person who so happens to exhibit these qualities naturally is... wrong. Some people are "that gay". So what? It hurts no one. it makes no one less masculine.

On the Flip side, gay masculinity has also been given this harsh stereotyping, as guys who have so much testosterone, merely being in proximity will cause one's 5 o'clock shadow to come in early; Leather, jockstraps, muscles, hairiness, etc. Bears are a mainstream cultural phenomena, and the rest of the world has adapted (Homo Sapiens really do like to maintain their munitions of stereotypes, and will create a new one if their previous one is debunked, or has fallen out of vogue).

Then there's Sex itself (and please don't take this as some anti-anal wackjobbery; whatever floats one's boat, after all); we have been stereotyped as a people who's only means of experiencing intimacy if via anal sex, which we self perpetuate in our erotic entertainment (porn) because we've been taught by straight people that it is what we're supposed to do, even though they hate us for it. I myself don't like "topping" or "bottoming" (not a "g0y", though; that's another can of worms). But that would make it harder for the homophobes to identify us as walking sex acts.


I have an observation (which some may agree with) in that homophobic straight persons condensed all these features into one or two "icons". They use it to target us, identify us for either attack or use (as in they use us like equipment/tools, rather than human beings). In the case of the latter, if we do not fall into their narrow categorization of homosexual, we are considered "useless". They only want to tolerate us enough to make use of us; to decorate their houses; to cater their events; to push them at the gym for peak muscularity; in other words, to make THEM look good. Most of straight culture thinks we control media aesthetics, but it's actually them that controls our view of who we are and who we should be, even if it comes from a place of discrimination, no matter how passive.

tl;dr: people who so happen to be stereotypes are humans too; all expressions of gender are needed, we hate each other because of homophobic straight people's influence, and merely tolerating us for utilization is not enough if we want to be viewed as equal.

bonus: bisexuals exist. don't shame them.
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Luriel LoonShy

LoonShy

"those kind of gays"

July 10 2015
So, with the big decision, pride, anti pride and so on, have any of your opinions changed regarding this topic? Or have you more to say?