Some more videos!

The new regional play feature really sounds neat to me! Just like in SimCity4, you can have multiple cities in the same region, but now its much more social and you can have friends of yours play those cities. It'd be really cool to have a Stonewall region where we can all team up and play together!

Quote by NicholasJohn16

This isn't about trust. This is about rationing a limited supply fairly.

Just my two cents. I've bought my one fleet ship, and I'm happy with it - don't really see any others I want.

HOWEVER, the fleet MK XII weapons and new ship consoles at the Embassy are making me drool, and I don't know what the limit on these items is.

That is what concerns me about opening up the fleet store -
1) How do each of these items drain our provisions?
2) How much of a dent would 10 fleet members each buying 7 weapons at a time impact our stockpile?
3) What is the limit on these items for each purchaser? Is it per weapon and per console?

The chat has been a bit quiet lately. I would like to start doing more as a group and invite anyone to contribute anything they'd be interested in doing in-game. I for one am interested in doing Fractal runs, dungeon runs, leveling alts or WvW. We need to start taking aim and different areas of the game. It's a lot more exciting and rewarding to play in groups.

Awww, shucks Nick, ya know how to make a gal feel missed. ;-) Yeah, I can be a bit persistent from time to time, but isn't that why ya love me?

I think I've actually already said my piece, so I guess I'll just leave it at that. Do love the direction it's taking though!

Oh, Araa, it's good to see that your break from STO hasn't diminished your ability to make gentle reminders seem more like driving a fist into someone's face. You have a funny way of "speaking your piece" and letting others speak their minds. I suppose if you first don't succeed, try, try, try again.

This was not a "we're gonna be conservative while we're figuring it out" policy. The current policy was decided at a fleet-wide meeting in which all members in attendance were informed about how the new system works, it's limitations and our fears. They decided how we should proceed from that point. It doesn't get more egalitarian than that. :)

This isn't about trust. This is about rationing a limited supply fairly. That being said, our need to ration has diminished since this process was first decided. (Although, we have yet to build up a large supply of Embassy provisions.) It's been a topic of discussion among the leadership for sometime now with us debating what to do about limits and promotions. We're glad that all of you have used the forums to express your thoughts on the matter.

If we were to open up access to the fleet stores, we wouldn't do it by creating a new rank and furthering complicating how the fleet runs. We already have a ranks that separate recent joins and people that are involved in the fleet; Cadet and Member. Basing store access on donation would necessitate someone actually tallying up all donation amounts for all their characters in all our fleets. Counting would be incredibly time consuming and tedious for literally hundreds of members and characters.

Personally, one of the biggest reasons I'd like to see the 'Purchase from Fleet Store' permission given to Members is to remove this additional burden to our hard working Fleet Captains and Admirals. While promoting and demoting members isn't that time consuming, it's a little bit of tedium that I'd like to remove from their burden. Then I can find more work for them to do. :evil:

Time Zone based volunteers aren't really an option. We don't get volunteers based on location; we get them based on their availability. Even if we picked Fleet Captains based on their time zones, we can't require them to play at certain times. The much easier solution to this problem is to open up access to the fleet stores. [Actually Sthiss, one of our Admirals have been trying to contact you via in-game mail about your promotion.]

Quote by Araa

Why? The simple reason is zombie accounts, people that join a fleet and then just leave the game (or take a break long enough to get pruned), artificially inflating the size of the fleet.

Zombie accounts don't happen. We don't prune the fleet roster just when we're running out of space, we do it regularly to remove any characters that have not logged on three months. Dead accounts don't stay around any longer than that and for that reason the roster is a pretty good indicator of activity. Recently, we've needed to be increasingly prompt on the 3 month limit because we have so many active characters.

Yes, it would be news if we we're no longer the largest glbt fleet in STO. Unless this fleet has the ability to recruit without any advertisements, being listed on google or discussed on the STO forums.

Measuring who's currently online isn't exactly a perfect metric either. It would be very biased depending on your location.

We haven`t discussed Option #5, opening the store to all (non-Recruit) members. While a reasonable option to consider, IMHO, I personally wouldn't go QUITE this far from the start, simply because I feel we'd open ourselves a little bit too much to 'grazing', people who join the fleet simply to pick up a few extra ground weapons or buffs. While I don't believe large scale fraud is possibility, we'd have to accept the fact that this option would increase our risk of multiple instances of small scale fraud, including particularly to the buff provisions.

For the record, if I had to choose one option, I'd vote for option 4, with a member cooldown of some period (3 months?) before having full access to the store. I don't think quotas are necessary, but some useful guidelines could be put in place (e.g., don't shop for your BOFFs, here are some pointers on what's good to buy and what's not, etc.). Controlled access to the stores (the system we use today) could still be allowed during the member's cooldown period. After running this for a few months, I'd then consider opening it to all members.

Any other votes, options, or insights?

Thanks Doc, great to know we're in astoundingly in sync with one of the leadership team's topics of the day!

I don't think there are any hackles being raised, it seems to be all in very good fun (I'm having a blast with my worthy colleagues, I have to say), and any debates between positions should only help to strengthen and clarify the positions and their relative merits.

To take one example, my request for Todd to put some figures behind this mysterious threat that we're facing is a counterpoint, but in my view it's CRITICAL to moving the discussion beyond "we need to be safe because of some scary people" and into a data-driven understanding of the EXTENT of that risk and the motivations behind these alleged scsammers. For anyone seriously concerned about a potential security risk, I highly suggest you sit down and do some calculations using our # of provisions, cost of purchases (fleet credits AND dil) and the items they'd be purchasing.

Now the other possibility is that REAL demand lowers the provision count (for ground equip and buffs), but we can always use voluntary quotas to ease that in and see gradually if that's going to be a significant concern. Personally, I feel there's so little actually worth buying in fleet stores that it shouldn't be, but I could be wrong on this count.

Just to pull back the curtain a little, fleet leadership has been discussing this issue and we're currently weighing potential new policies against the current one. We're closely keeping up with everyone's ideas and opinions on how to handle the starbase provos.

That being said, just to keep everyone's hackles down: this is not a question that will be settled by out-arguing the people who hold other stances. The best way to have your voice make a difference is to state your own opinion clearly and make a case for it.

I vote for Araa's options 2 & 4! And Time Zone Captains!

I think if the this manner of exploitation was happening with any true frequency in other fleets it would be all over the STO forums by now with demands that the Devs do something to fix it. Since most fleets have been operating without our level of restrictions without widespread incident (which would in all probability be known by now and fleet reputation among the general player base aside) I feel that the scenario put forward is at best a remote possibility. And Joeatl's suggestion of a mandatory waiting period before new players can access the fleet store should be a logically viable compromise for all concerned and serve as a sterling example of this fleet's principle-driven ability to cooperate with one another.

Quote by joenAtl

oh the bank robbery we all know that was a conspiracy. Lucky we saw it and did not give mod permission to the one asking for it.

Oh, no, that never happens. You're crazy.

Everyone knows that this game is so perfectly designed that no one can ever figure out ways to exploit the system for their own gain and to the detriment of other players. Does. Not. Happen. That fleet store is safe as houses!


You do know that when the base first opened, there was a bug that allowed non-fleet members who were invited to our base by a member to buy stuff from our ship stores? Right? Res did it. Unintentionally and without malice, but did it and told us about it. Who's willing to bet that there are no more bugs in STO's interface? Precautions protect us from things we know happen because they happened before.

Quote by Araa

So given that you've thought through your position in a logical way, which I don't doubt, I ask you, please outline the scenario I should be afraid of, with figures. My theory is that, as you try to build the robber's business case, you'll see it just doesn't make sense.

I did exactly that in an earlier post in this thread:

Say you belong to another fleet and have contributed to your starbase and built up a pile of fleet credits, but your own fleet is short of provisions. So you quit that fleet, join ours, go to the fleet store, buy as much as you can afford, quit Stonewall, and rejoin your old fleet with an inventory of fleet provisions that you neither built up nor contributed to. This is profitable for you because you used up otherwise unusable fleet credits to get fleet stores that didn't cost you anything. Am I missing something that makes this impossible? Now imagine a dozen people doing this. Or more. For all of their toons.

Exactly how is this scenario implausible to you?

Maybe it doesn't happen to other fleets because they don't have lots of fleet provisions banked like we do. Or maybe it does happen to other fleets, but we don't know about it because they don't brag about being raided. I don't know. And not knowing makes me cautious.

And let me be clear that I recognize that this is an area where reasonable minds can and will differ... what we are talking about is assessment of risk, and that is all. I respect the fact that you are simply weighing the risk differently than I am.

As far as time zones and access, we could be logical and assign time zone fleet captains. If there is a captain for your time zone they can grant you access during your time zone when both are active (outside of the waiting period). You can do this through mail or IM. Or if we have nite owl captains they could do it for other zones. Again no one needs immed. access to a fleet commodity or they will die.

oh the bank robbery we all know that was a conspiracy. Lucky we saw it and did not give mod permission to the one asking for it.

Quote by Toddoverton

I do rather take exception to the suggestion that my position is based solely on some unthinking, panic-fueled, habitual reaction. Personally, I think I've thought my position through quite thoroughly and dispassionately. We're all science geeks here... if we are going to keep doing the same thing over again expecting a different result, what would Einstein call that?

Hey guys, the bank was robbed so let's open up the store to prove that we trust people to not do it again! Srsly?

I don't think its entirely fair or accurate to compare the two (bank and fleet store). As previously stated it would be a lot more difficult and costly to try to exploit the fleet store in the way that the bank was. I suggest we move on from that analogy as it is speciously over-dramatized, albeit dispassionately, and focus on what potential true harm, if any does this pose to our fleet holdings.

Sthiss, that's pretty crazy, but yeah, I have seen people get quite frustrated with that at times, particularly the Europeans.

Would you care to weigh in on which of the 5 options you think would work best, particularly based on your assessment of the risks associated with each one?

The issue I have with your reaction to the bank issue is that Bank robbery != Store robbery, for the reasons we've discussed.

Stealing from a bank - easy - makes the robber rich. Stealing from a store, will make the robber POOR. I'd totally support harsher restrictions on our bank. In fact, bizarrely, our policy is far more lenient for banking than most other fleets I've seen. Why are we lenient on the stuff that's easy to steal and tough on the stuff that no one wants to steal? No idea.

So given that you've thought through your position in a logical way, which I don't doubt, I ask you, please outline the scenario I should be afraid of, with figures. My theory is that, as you try to build the robber's business case, you'll see it just doesn't make sense. But I'd love for you to prove me otherwise, cause I'd totally learn something in the process.

* != is the geek way of saying "does not equal", for anyone who isn't familiar with the notation

I got bored playing without access to fleet provisions. I started playing GW2 instead because there was consistently NO fleet captain online during the times I log in. It is a problem... most people able to promote for access play during North America peak times.

Quote by Jacien

Yes, we have had the occasional individual or group that for one reason or another did us harm. That creates fear and fear breeds mistrust so I can understand why some people would choose a more conservative model out of habit.

Not out of habit. Out of experience. It has happened before that people have abused thier free access to shared fleet resources, and we are reacting to that experience by urging that we maintain our reasonable precautions when it comes to fleet provisions.

I do rather take exception to the suggestion that my position is based solely on some unthinking, panic-fueled, habitual reaction. Personally, I think I've thought my position through quite thoroughly and dispassionately. We're all science geeks here... if we are going to keep doing the same thing over again expecting a different result, what would Einstein call that?

Hey guys, the bank was robbed so let's open up the store to prove that we trust people to not do it again! Srsly?

Wow Joen, look what happens when you apply your evil genius powers for good!!! More tequila for everyone!

Thanks for adding ANOTHER option just as I finished my list, but I'd say your idea is awesome, and not one I've seen implemented before.

I'd be more than happy to replace my fleet marks minimum with your time limit to make that the new Option #4.

So yes, with the new Option #4, a scammer would now have to be a filthy rich evil genius who targets only Stonewall and then waits six months to launch his dastardly plan to throw his money down the toilet. Sounding like we're pretty golden to me.. :-D

P.S. And to help calm down anyone who might still be concerned about security, remember, we don't need to be locked down like Fort Knox to avoid scammers, we just need to be a harder target than the other guys. If we had a mandatory minimum waiting period, there are hundreds of fleets that would be MUCH easier targets than us.