First off, I don't feel that someone should be instigating and nurturing this type of feeling of distrust amongst fleet members, especially someone in a leadership position. The statements I have highlighted in red serve no purpose but to inflame the situation and bring about a divide amongst fleet members. This is not an attack on Ozy, or anything personal, but I just feel that this divisiveness is uncalled for. I would say this to anyone who posted as such.

I'm instigating nothing, I'm making an informed observation of what exactly took place when season 6 went live, and people took it upon themselves to camp the projects, some even took it upon themselves to make it a competition between them to see who could fill the projects the fastest, the moment they became available. It's that selfishness I take extreme dislike to. That's devisive. That's prioritising their own greed over other fleeties who would like to raise their own amount of fleet credits.

Second, in regard to the spawn camping and denial of fleet marks. That's a load of crud. I kept track of when missions would turn over so I could donate. Plain and simple. Same as someone would do in farmville etc... And to be honest the first couple of weeks the projects would turn over at about 1-5am my time so those I did not donate to. And why did I donate, to advance the fleet base projects. I felt the longer items were not donated the longer it would take to move up in the tiers and block access to the higher items like mail, bank etc.... Is that a bad thing wanting the base to move forward? Say someone has the resources to advance and close a project, shouldn't they do so to allow the timer to start so we can get closer to starting the next project and moving forward, or should they just wait for everyone to have a chance to earn/donate what is needed? Who wants to be stuck with a base at tier one while we wait for everyone to earn what is needed to move on? Stagnant project or flowing project, you decide.

If you recall a singled out no one, but here you are implying my words were aimed esxclusively at you. But if we are on the point of continention regarding moving the base forward. I'd argue that its far more fair to donate incrementally (unless its stalled for a while) to enable other users a chance. Instead of blasting them completely with everything youve got denying anyone else ANY inpute to fleet projects for 3-48 hours.

Next, no one is denying, or has the ability to deny YOU fleet credits. The reason there are those 1/2 hour missions at the bottom is to fund members with fleet marks.

Acually, I disagree. If a 10,000 Dilithium requirment gives you 10,000 fleet credits, and ONE person alone donates all of that in less than 10 seconds as soon as the project goes live, yeah that's unfair. because all 10,000 went to that person because they camped it, AND denied anyone else several thousand. Is that not selfishness? Those half-hour projects award a pitance in comparison. Apples and Oranges.

Was it a competition, no.

For some it was absolutely, and there is evidence to support that, but i wont go into that atm for reasons of confidentiality. Suffice to say, there was sufficient evidence that some took it upon themselves to compete in the camping of projects, even going so far as to congratulate themselves about it in fleet chat.

This is exactly why Ive ahd hesittation in adopting an open system, because there ARE some fleet members who would explot it, and that camping is just testament to that. That isnt tarring everyone with the same brush its reaffirming human nature, some people are just like that, regardless of what organisation they're in. We're not all sunshine and sparkles in the fleet, we're a varied bunch and as such rules and controls need to be provided in order to maintain equality.

As to the statement of those who are actively working to harm the advancement of the fleet, I would hope our leadership takes action to rectify a situation like that.

Of course and we continue to do that.

:(
Well folks, today's the day. City of Heroes is sunset is scheduled for today. It will be missed. Matt, the senior producer had some nice parting words:

http://www.mmodesigner.com/?p=276

Quote by joenAtl

Ok, I have been stewing about this now since 5pm yesterday. Part of me wanted to start a new thread as not to push this thread out farther, but then I didn't want to possibly drag people who are not paying attention to this thread into the fray. I REALLY take issue/have a problem with this post:

Quote by Ozy

Soemone mentioned inherent distrust and that no-one in the fleet could do that. Allow me to cut through some hand holding here and shine a hot uncomfortable white light on an unfortunate reality. Starbase camping was RAMPANT after season 6 launched, so much so that the disparity between campers and their fellow members is so grossly distorted that the campers now have the fleet credit ability to purchase every fleet ship and item in the game and STILL have an extremely large amount of credits left. All this to the disadvantage of YOU. I can't tell you how much I petitioned and complained to my fellow executive officers about this, because it isn't fair on anyone.

In fact some fleeties made it a competiion against YOU, to deny YOU the ability to donate to the starbase so they could inflate their already grossly inflated fleet credit holdings.
...
But be aware all this I have mentioned, there are some that would deny you the ability to improve the fleet, it's unfortunate, but true.

Admiral Ozy :)

First off, I don't feel that someone should be instigating and nurturing this type of feeling of distrust amongst fleet members, especially someone in a leadership position. The statements I have highlighted in red serve no purpose but to inflame the situation and bring about a divide amongst fleet members. This is not an attack on Ozy, or anything personal, but I just feel that this divisiveness is uncalled for. I would say this to anyone who posted as such.

Second, in regard to the spawn camping and denial of fleet marks. That's a load of crud. I kept track of when missions would turn over so I could donate. Plain and simple. Same as someone would do in farmville etc... And to be honest the first couple of weeks the projects would turn over at about 1-5am my time so those I did not donate to. And why did I donate, to advance the fleet base projects. I felt the longer items were not donated the longer it would take to move up in the tiers and block access to the higher items like mail, bank etc.... Is that a bad thing wanting the base to move forward? Say someone has the resources to advance and close a project, shouldn't they do so to allow the timer to start so we can get closer to starting the next project and moving forward, or should they just wait for everyone to have a chance to earn/donate what is needed? Who wants to be stuck with a base at tier one while we wait for everyone to earn what is needed to move on? Stagnant project or flowing project, you decide.

Next, no one is denying, or has the ability to deny YOU fleet credits. The reason there are those 1/2 hour missions at the bottom is to fund members with fleet marks. Its says so in the mission notes. Special projects are for larger fleets for all members to generate fleet marks equally. And to be honest they are not that hard to fill. There are not that many choices that I can see where someone could not prep to donate to those (colonists, gamma quad, contraband supplies etc..). What they call for is not so out there(like the borg neural processors) that the average player could not pull them together on their own either via doff missions, exchange or even ask another member for them if it comes down to it(I know I have supplied members with excess I have when asked). So denial of credits is just absurd. I have even been online when a special project was not running and a FC even asked in chat what everyone one wanted to donate so they could start the appropriate mission based on what members had banked to move on.

Was it a competition, no. Was it to help the fleet, yes. I guess this is the basic statement I want to get across, SOME OF US DONATE TO IMPROVE THE BASE for YOU. I know others who have been charged with a gluttony of fleet credits feel the same way. We've chatted about it over the last almost 24 hours. I am not sure if it is known, but when projects get stalled there are those of us who use our resources to move it forward. I know I've personally spent WAY too much on Doffs from the exchange to get things moving. That bar project, some of us could have turned our romulan ale or rotgut to the exchange and received 300K ec Per BOTTLE. I think that amount of EC is worth more then the pittance of credits that it provided. Now getting called out for harming the fleet is just plain hurtful.

As to the statement of those who are actively working to harm the advancement of the fleet, I would hope our leadership takes action to rectify a situation like that.

Once more I have thought about this now for almost a day and it just has yet to sit right with me. Actually last night when I read that my mood changed 100% and my partner called me out on it. I am in no way trying to start, or prolong a flame war of any sort. I am in no way trying to attack anyone. It just felt like that splinter you get that keeps stabbing at you until you decide you have to just go all in and dig it out.

Thanks for listening,

Joe

P.S. Why is there no preview button for posting?

Very well said...

Currently many projects stall, so plenty of opportunity for members to donate.

My motivations were to donate to the projects to move the base progression, I donate very little now as my resources are depleted and I feel the Starbase progression has to settle into a steady pace for all member to steadily donate etc.

Just think guys, we are hitting 100k FXP in each category over the coming weeks, we got to do all that again plus 50k to reach the 250k to reach T5. So going to be I reckon at least another 4-6months before all categories at T5... So again lots of opportunity for donations.

Cheers

Ok, I have been stewing about this now since 5pm yesterday. Part of me wanted to start a new thread as not to push this thread out farther, but then I didn't want to possibly drag people who are not paying attention to this thread into the fray. I REALLY take issue/have a problem with this post:

Quote by Ozy

Soemone mentioned inherent distrust and that no-one in the fleet could do that. Allow me to cut through some hand holding here and shine a hot uncomfortable white light on an unfortunate reality. Starbase camping was RAMPANT after season 6 launched, so much so that the disparity between campers and their fellow members is so grossly distorted that the campers now have the fleet credit ability to purchase every fleet ship and item in the game and STILL have an extremely large amount of credits left. All this to the disadvantage of YOU. I can't tell you how much I petitioned and complained to my fellow executive officers about this, because it isn't fair on anyone.

In fact some fleeties made it a competiion against YOU, to deny YOU the ability to donate to the starbase so they could inflate their already grossly inflated fleet credit holdings.
...
But be aware all this I have mentioned, there are some that would deny you the ability to improve the fleet, it's unfortunate, but true.

Admiral Ozy :)

First off, I don't feel that someone should be instigating and nurturing this type of feeling of distrust amongst fleet members, especially someone in a leadership position. The statements I have highlighted in red serve no purpose but to inflame the situation and bring about a divide amongst fleet members. This is not an attack on Ozy, or anything personal, but I just feel that this divisiveness is uncalled for. I would say this to anyone who posted as such.

Second, in regard to the spawn camping and denial of fleet marks. That's a load of crud. I kept track of when missions would turn over so I could donate. Plain and simple. Same as someone would do in farmville etc... And to be honest the first couple of weeks the projects would turn over at about 1-5am my time so those I did not donate to. And why did I donate, to advance the fleet base projects. I felt the longer items were not donated the longer it would take to move up in the tiers and block access to the higher items like mail, bank etc.... Is that a bad thing wanting the base to move forward? Say someone has the resources to advance and close a project, shouldn't they do so to allow the timer to start so we can get closer to starting the next project and moving forward, or should they just wait for everyone to have a chance to earn/donate what is needed? Who wants to be stuck with a base at tier one while we wait for everyone to earn what is needed to move on? Stagnant project or flowing project, you decide.

Next, no one is denying, or has the ability to deny YOU fleet credits. The reason there are those 1/2 hour missions at the bottom is to fund members with fleet marks. Its says so in the mission notes. Special projects are for larger fleets for all members to generate fleet marks equally. And to be honest they are not that hard to fill. There are not that many choices that I can see where someone could not prep to donate to those (colonists, gamma quad, contraband supplies etc..). What they call for is not so out there(like the borg neural processors) that the average player could not pull them together on their own either via doff missions, exchange or even ask another member for them if it comes down to it(I know I have supplied members with excess I have when asked). So denial of credits is just absurd. I have even been online when a special project was not running and a FC even asked in chat what everyone one wanted to donate so they could start the appropriate mission based on what members had banked to move on.

Was it a competition, no. Was it to help the fleet, yes. I guess this is the basic statement I want to get across, SOME OF US DONATE TO IMPROVE THE BASE for YOU. I know others who have been charged with a gluttony of fleet credits feel the same way. We've chatted about it over the last almost 24 hours. I am not sure if it is known, but when projects get stalled there are those of us who use our resources to move it forward. I know I've personally spent WAY too much on Doffs from the exchange to get things moving. That bar project, some of us could have turned our romulan ale or rotgut to the exchange and received 300K ec Per BOTTLE. I think that amount of EC is worth more then the pittance of credits that it provided. Now getting called out for harming the fleet is just plain hurtful.

As to the statement of those who are actively working to harm the advancement of the fleet, I would hope our leadership takes action to rectify a situation like that.

Once more I have thought about this now for almost a day and it just has yet to sit right with me. Actually last night when I read that my mood changed 100% and my partner called me out on it. I am in no way trying to start, or prolong a flame war of any sort. I am in no way trying to attack anyone. It just felt like that splinter you get that keeps stabbing at you until you decide you have to just go all in and dig it out.

Thanks for listening,

Joe

P.S. Why is there no preview button for posting?

Quote by mrgig00

Last that I'll say on this topic, which is now four days older with no progress

I hope that I can answer some of your questions. Firstly, as has been mentioned, there is an ongoing discussion amongst the fleet leadership as to whether changes to the fleet store process will be implemented, and if so, what form those changes will take.

I expect that an announcement will be made in the near future, so don't construe the lack of a formal position by the leadership in this particular thread, as being a lack of progress :)

Quote by mrgig00

All I want to know is what the per person limit is on other fleet resources besides ships.

Fleet ship: 1
Fleet space weapons: 8
Fleet space gear: 1x shield, 1x engine, 1x deflector
Fleet ground gear: 1x armor, 1x shield, 1x weapon

Basically, the idea was that you'd be able to use fleet gear to outfit your Captain, and not your entire bridge crew. These limits are a 'per character' limit, which means that if you have a toon in Deep Space Stonewall or House of Nagh Red, that you could outfit them as well.

I'm using the following threads as reference, in answering this question:

The July fleet meeting minutes:
http://fleet.stonewallgaming.net/forums/briefing-room/46036-fleet-wide-meeting-minutes-july-21st

And here... in which provisioning is further discussed:
http://fleet.stonewallgaming.net/forums/ten-forward/49810-promotion-to-requisitioning-request

Quote by mrgig00

Just getting some numbers (i.e. 1 fleet weapon drains "X" provisions; we generate approx "Y" provisions per week, and spend approx "Z" a week) would be a huge help to me, and to this larger discussion about opening the store or not.

To answer your question, I currently track the provision totals across all three fleets, once or twice weekly. Let's use yesterday's provision totals for Deep Space Stonewall as an example.

Deep Space Stonewall
Starbase Provision totals

Military:
95 Buffs
81 Fleet Ships
59 Operational Assets

Engineering:
25 Buffs
45 Operational Assets
53 Personal Requisition

Science:
50 Buffs
49 Operational Assets
49 Personal Requisition

Purchasing one fleet ship, will reduce the number of fleet ship provisions from 81 to 80, while purchasing 8 ship weapons, will reduce the number of Engineering assets (I believe space weapons come from this category) from 45 to 37. Essentially, each time you purchase one item, you're lowering the number of overall provisions in a certain category by one.

Provisioning projects reward half of the Starbase experience that normal Starbase progression projects do in the same amount of time. Therefore, running a provisioning project comes at the expense of base progression.

Hypothetically, if the provisioning reserves were greatly consumed and we had to run a lot of provisioning projects to increase our stockpile, it would take longer for our Starbase to progress.

This is my source for the aforementioned information:
http://www.stowiki.org/List_of_starbase_projects


Additionally, Doctor Disaster has got some crazy complicated system of crunching the numbers relating to all of our Starbase provisioning and advancement stats. He's in a much better position to answer, on average, how many provisions we add to the stockpile per week. He can probably answer any other related questions as well.

I hope this addresses some of the questions that people may have had :)

I too would like that information.

Last that I'll say on this topic, which is now four days older with no progress (and I'm personally awaiting a response to an older inquiry on this very same topic, but then this thread erupted, so who knows if I'll get a response.)

All I want to know is what the per person limit is on other fleet resources besides ships.

I'm cool with well-defined limits. I don't want to make new rules or form a quorum or wait on a poll or hash it all out forever and ever ad nauseum. Open the store, don't open the store; makes me no difference - I can only buy so much anyway.

We already had a fleet meeting and a large enough group of us agreed to limits, specifically 1 ship per member; I didn't make it to the meeting, but I'm totally cool with what was decided and trust my fleet in this regard. Yes, asking for permission to go shop is a little inconvenient, but I'll live.

HOWEVER, all I want to know is what the per person limit is on other fleet resources besides ships. I don't want to infringe on anyone else's access to these items, but I do want them for myself.

Until we have a number limit, or a suggestion, or even a statement on how much each purchase drains from the Fleet Provisions, I'm in limbo with a dwindling Dilithium market and no clue on how I should proceed. It's frustrating, and since it's zen/dilithium conversion that I have to use with my fleet credits (casual gamer here,) it's a matter of real money.

Just getting some numbers (i.e. 1 fleet weapon drains "X" provisions; we generate approx "Y" provisions per week, and spend approx "Z" a week) would be a huge help to me, and to this larger discussion about opening the store or not.

Hell, low-ball the figures and create a small surplus by erring on the side of caution, but sitting here spinning our wheels with no facts on our provision budget is maddening, and only leads to improved Canada-Italy relations.

I apologize for being selfish in this regard, but I don't want to change any rules or eliminate them or anything; I just want clarification of the current rule (and to a lesser extent, its effects on our budget thus far) while everyone hashes out whether they want the store open or not...

------------------------------------------

P.S. - I'm also cool with if our fleet hasn't been tracking numbers and purchases. It's a game after all, and people have lives. But until we discuss actual metrics in real numeric budgetary terms with some kind of factual records to back it up, then there's no point in limits in the first place; it's just an arbitrary preference up to that point.

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The film was amazing and went a long way to naming my ship "USS Chris McCandless (AKA the fleets "Pink Bull")

I often play this particular song in the background of STO, from time to time. :)

Quote by SBOSlayer

Just while were on the subject matter how much have you contributed to the base?

Quote by SBOSlayer

This wasn't intended as a direct dig at you, but I was trying to portray a point.

Thanks a ton for this clarification SBO, and yes, please avoid the word "you" in the future when referring to a theoretical case, it does make it look quite personal. lol. Apology accepted. ;-) j/k

Quote by SBOSlayer

... my point at the end of the day was that if any member had access is it fair to give them provisions they haven't earned when the rest of the fleet has been tireless working on it?

K, don't understand this point at all. The current system is designed to move assets from hardcore gamers to casual gamers. I may build the starbase with 5m fleet credits, but I only get my tiny quota back, whereas a casual gamer can contribute the bare minimum, benefit from all my tireless work (a tier IV starbase, nice!), and get exactly the same amount. In fact, it's even worse, he can create more toons than me and withdraw MORE than I can. So are you challenging the use of quotas in the current system?? Most of the options we've been discussing so far still include quotas, so I think we're still assuming this pro-casual gamer stance. Do clarify as necessary.

Good luck with the uni!

Quote by SBOSlayer

Just while were on the subject matter how much have you contributed to the base? are you willing to take advantage of others contributions to satisfy, what seems like an agenda.

I don't want to restart this topic as it's all been taken under advisement. I could have phrased my post differently, but my point at the end of the day was that if any member had access is it fair to give them provisions they haven't earned when the rest of the fleet has been tireless working on it? This wasn't intended as a direct dig at you, but I was trying to portray a point.

The blame game, well yeah, I just interrupted the posts made and it felt like that. So forgive me if that wasn't the intention. Guess it's cultural difference and all that stuff.

The point of my last post was to simply demonstrate that although this is a debate there is certain ways of highlighting issues. Guess I just didn't interrupt them in the light they were mean't to be received.

That being said all of this has been taken under advisement.

Anyways, back to uni work.

Quote by Ozy

In fact as a member of a mock United Nations community, I would whole-heartedly approve a quorum based voting system whereby the community could vote on these issues in order to promote further transparency in the fleet.

As a gigantic supporter of transparency (nothing cuts through BS and the rumour mill like it), I'd support this 100%, for as many issues as feasible. Have definitely seen other fleets use the same technique. How about it? Any interest? How about we have a vote on using voting? :-D

Quote by Jacien

I should be available Saturday Morning PDT, possibly all day if my afternoon plans fall through. My hybrid Klingon/Romulan Mean Girl is at your disposal.

Awesome. I'll be on for the bulk of the day, getting folks to join me in earning the resources our alt/kdf fleets need, which right now means dilithium and marks. We'll be doing fleet actions, pvp, stfs, sorties, exploration dailies, you name it.

I'll also be answering questions and trading tips on how to maximize holdings contributions for each player, so that the base and embassy can advance as quickly as possible, unlocking benefits for all fleet members.

I LOVE IT!! :woohoo:

Ahahah! No dear, Greeks had much better ideas then ours!

Pasta is clearly the winning response. Certainly not Soran's lame attempt to take credit for ripping off a few cool ideas from the Greeks! (See: Cumaean alphabet, Hellenistic philosphers).

And pasta... mmmmmmm...

And, as I already told you, the very same alphabet you're using, the ideas you're thinking and reality as you see it. :kiss:

Quote by Soran

I don't need to remind you that ars rhetorica was conceived here, right? :P

Yes, just like you also concieved the unemployed stay-at-home 30 year old son and the mafia. :-p

I don't need to remind you that ars rhetorica was conceived here, right? :P

Quote by Soran

From where I come, everything is subject to criticism (neutral word) and can be re-debated.

Lord, coming from an Italian, that's a hell of an understatement. Especially when the alternative is to have to actually DO something. :P